AOI ART Kantei Quizz 3

Jean · July 12, 2008

http://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei03.html

Probably, YH Nambokucho not often found probably because very much looked after

Jean · July 12, 2008

BTW, watch it out as it will be probably soon be on sale on Aoi Art website.

Tsuruta san seems to have some good swords lately

uwe · July 12, 2008

Hi Jean,

indeed, fine swords on AOI recently. In that case, I go for YH as well.

Cheers

Uwe

Ted Tenold · July 12, 2008

The shape and kitae are very nice on this sword. Definately a nice example for any collection.

Yamato Hosho Sadamune

Brian · July 12, 2008

Agree with the school completely based on the even masame and hakikake boshi. Not sure which smith though.

Brian

b.hennick · July 12, 2008

Although the blade has masame hada and lots of it I do not think of it as an early Yamato Hosho blade. There is not enough hataraki in the hamon and the boshi is not as strong as early work. I do not see enough fimbari as well. The patina on the tang is also not black enough for me for an early koto piece. If koto I think it a late piece.

sabiji · July 13, 2008

Hello, i am new here, and iÂ´m started with the risk to say, that this isnÂ´t a koto blade. Yes, she looks very old. But the sugata..., iÂ´m not sure, but in my opinion this is shinto. It seems to be the blade was polished many times and has lost much material, but i think the blade is only a little bid suriage. Also i think bevore shortening this was a regular size wakizashi about 53 or 54 cm.

There is also a part of very clear and sharp sujigai yasurime, and i think this yasurime is original.

With all these features together, i will say this is a yamato utsushi.

I think this is one of early generations sendai kunikane.

P.S. sorry for my bad english!

Tokaido · July 13, 2008

Hi,

I think Thomas got a point here!

If it is Hosho of late Kamakura Period or Nambokucho Period should'nt we see some more prominent nie in the hamon?

If it is very late Hosho of Muromachi Jidai, I would expect the hada on the rougher side.

If it is a shortened Wakizashi of late Hosho, we should probably expect higaki yasurime, so the sujikai yasurime would not fit if original.

Did you find any masaware in the pictures? If no or very little are present, maybe Borax played allready a role during folding (=>shinto)?

The sugata is not so obvious a clue of time in my opinion: If you have a greatly shortened late Kamakura shape, this would look very similar to a shortened Kanei-Shinto blade.

Too bad we can't judge the crosssection of the kantei blade!

Greetings

Jacques · July 13, 2008

Hi,

maybe Borax played allready a role during folding (=>shinto)?

takakage · July 13, 2008

due to the mix itame and masame, nioi and nie, hakkikake boshi without kaeri

for me it is a yamato tegai blade.

uwe · July 13, 2008

It seems to be the blade was polished many times and has lost much material

Hi Thomas,

nice to "see" you here, as well as in the "Budoforum" What leads you to this assumption

Cheers

Uwe

takakage · July 13, 2008

due to the lot of masame in the itame and the notare may be a work of kanenaga, it's just my opinion

sabiji · July 13, 2008

It is dificult to judge only from pictures.

What we have: no complete toshin, because suriage blade. No complete Nakago, because suriage.

What we have is a oshigata, some pictures and informations: prominent masame with fine ko itame, a suguba/ko notare in ko nie wich frayed slightly to the Ha (ko ashi, a little bit sunagashi and ha nie), there is a hakkake yakizume boshi.

Okay,fine, Yamato Hosho Style.

But i agree with the opinion of Barry Hennik and Andreas B.: there is not enough hataraki and prominent nie for a very good Hosho blade from the best times of this school.

The Masame is very wavy, this feature can find in later Hosho works and works of the Kunikane Ha. Yes, later HoshoÂ´s are rougher, and there are often masaware, but the Kantei Blade shows very good and clear masame without masaware.

@Uwe, thanks for welcome!

If (ONLY IF) the sujigai yasurime is a part of the original tang (and this Yasurime looks very similar to the early KunikaneÂ´s), this sujigai is only on Omote Side (Side who you can find a signature). Above and on ura side there are kiri. So i think the Nakago was filed to fit the Habaki ( when parts of original Nakago is much bolder than the new machi okuri area). Also, the Ha machi looks very "weak", and parts of hamon are very close to the Ha.

Darcy · July 14, 2008

When I see that much masame I go to Hosho as first guess. However there appears to be itame along the ha, and my small experience with Hosho *tends* to be pure masame when fully healthy. I did have a Sue-Tegai blade once on my site that looked so much like a Hosho that I'd have called it a Hosho, it just departed by the masame not being perfectly regular and a bit of itame mixed in there. The hamon on this does not appear to be as fine as the handful of nice Hosho I've seen in person.

So to me it looks like a Hosho that is a little bit looser in its interpretation than Hosho seemed to be, and that means to me that it would probably be attributed to Tegai. I think if it were Sue Tegai then it would not have so much activity, so I would be thinking kind of late Nanbokucho Tegai. For what it's worth. I am rusty.

uwe · July 14, 2008

If (ONLY IF) the sujigai yasurime is a part of the original tang (and this Yasurime looks very similar to the early KunikaneÂ´s), this sujigai is only on Omote Side (Side who you can find a signature). Above and on ura side there are kiri. So i think the Nakago was filed to fit the Habaki ( when parts of original Nakago is much bolder than the new machi okuri area). Also, the Ha machi looks very "weak", and parts of hamon are very close to the Ha.

Ok, sounds logical. But such a thing once to be supposed on koto blades, don`t you think?

For the "Kunikane" .....NFI....., never seen a blade from this den.

I myself go for Hosho, although the Tegai idea is not bad at all, considering the Nioiguchi. On the other hand....Sue Tegai.....shouldn't we see slight Kaeri

All in all, not so easy as I thought at first

Uwe

sabiji · July 17, 2008

Ok, sounds logical. But such a thing once to be supposed on koto blades, don`t you think?

For the "Kunikane" .....NFI....., never seen a blade from this den.

All in all, not so easy as I thought at first

Uwe

Hi Uwe,

look at this pretty example:

http://cgi.ebay.de/K-Japanese-KATANA-SW ... dZViewItem

Without "Papers" it looks like a Koto Blade, than with Tokubetsu Kicho it is a Koto Blade . But now with new Hozon Kanteisho Papers itÂ´s "only" a Shinto Blade .

(Ishido School was one of the best Bizen Utsushi makers at this time).

No, i do the risk to say this is a Shinto Blade from the best Hosho Utsushi makers at this time, the Kunikane School.

uwe · July 17, 2008

I`m curious of what comes out......

Uwe

saemonjonosuke · July 17, 2008

Hi,

I registered today as a member. Nice forum, very well done.

Aboet the kantei of Tsuruta:

I think this sword is not made by kunikane.

So, possible Ko-hosho or sue-hosho or atleast late nambokucho.

Anyway,, kantei is always difficult. More important is that the den is very clear and it looks like a good quality blade.

John

Jean · July 18, 2008

For those interested, Sendai Kunikane school examples - we cannot consider really these swords as utsushi as this school has been working steadily in the hosho tradition.

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/0710_2039syousai.htm

late generation :

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/0810_3023syousai.htm

Jean · July 18, 2008

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/08217.html

Brian · July 18, 2008

Ted!

Nice one. Well done to Jean for picking up the school immediately and everyone else after who got the school and/or got so close.

Brian

sabiji · July 18, 2008

No risk, no fun!

July 19, 2008

There is no definitely genuine work by Hosho Sadamune found up to now. Ergo: There is no reliable source to compare with.

reinhard

Jacques · July 19, 2008

Hi,

There is no definitely genuine work by Hosho Sadamune found up to now. Ergo: There is no reliable source to compare with.

reinhard

what about this one?:

Darcy · July 19, 2008

Well guess I overthought it. Instinct next time :-).

Good call Ted! Congrats.

I was not aware that there were zero examples of Hosho Sadamune. Fujishiro just says "practically none in existence today can be trusted". Furthermore following that logic, you have to eliminate all attributed Soshu Sadamune and Go Yoshihiro as there are no signed examples.

What the NBTHK does in these matters is rely on old and/or traditional attributions, along with historical descriptions and/or oshigata. Many old attributions to Soshu Sadamune and Masamune have been eliminated by re-attributing to other smiths more likely to have made them, many have been confirmed, through this process.

July 19, 2008

P.S.

(quoting from a Kantei-comment by the NBTHK judge concerning a blade by Hosho SADAOKI):

"Most answers named Hosho smiths as SADAMUNE, SADAYOSHI, SADAKIYO and SADAOKI. They developed few individual traits to make clear distinction among themselves. It is good enough to come as close as to specify the Hosho school at the end of the Kamakura period. Since SADAMUNE is represented by no definitely genuine specimen, it is desirable not to mention his name in a Kantei. SADAYOSHI, SADAKIYO and SADAOKI are the ones to be considered....."

Congrats anyway, Ted.

reinhard

Jacques · July 20, 2008

Hi,

P.S.
(quoting from a Kantei-comment by the NBTHK judge concerning a blade by Hosho SADAOKI):

"Most answers named Hosho smiths as SADAMUNE, SADAYOSHI, SADAKIYO and SADAOKI. They developed few individual traits to make clear distinction among themselves. It is good enough to come as close as to specify the Hosho school at the end of the Kamakura period. Since SADAMUNE is represented by no definitely genuine specimen, it is desirable not to mention his name in a Kantei. SADAYOSHI, SADAKIYO and SADAOKI are the ones to be considered....."

That is really strange the NBTHK comment seems in contradiction with its meaning, indeed, how can we discern if there are no works by Sadamune if there is no substantial peculiarity in the different swordsmiths works?

A comment by Clive Sinclaire about Hosho ha

LONDON y ARMS FAIR MEETING

SEPTEMBER 25, 2004

2: HOSHO SADAMUNE

The Yamato tradition was based in Nara in very early times when Nara was the capital of the country (710-794) and its prosperity was based on Buddhist temples of that area. These temples had many land holdings throughout the country which enjoyed generous tax free status and it was the monks of these temples who jealously guarded these privileges and who employed many swordsmiths.

There were five main sub groups in Yamato-den Senjuin, Shikkake, Taima, Tegai and Hosho, all of whom were affiliated to different temples but few swords are seen before Kamakura period. Many of these swords were not signed with smithâ€™s names as these smiths were considered as simple suppliers to the monastic establishments. Sometimes, if there was any inscription at all, it would just be Senjuin for example..

It would seem to me that few early Yamato swords are encountered in the west and so maybe we are not too familiar with them. They have certain characteristics that should make them identifiable such as a high shinogi, wide shinogi-ji and often with niku. The Jihada nearly always has some masame present somewhere or it may be a running itame. Also sometimes it would seem that a Shirake utsuri may be seen.

The hamon in Yamato-den is mainly suguha, similar to Yamashiro in nie-deki, vertical hataraki like kuchigai-ba, nijuba and uchinoke are found, Boshi tend to be yakizuma, kaen, or hakikake

The Yamato blade here today is of the Hosho school which is quite rare. It is very easy to kantei as it is the only school in koto times with pure masame-hada. Kunimitsu was the founder in the mid-Kamakura period, but again there are no extant works, and so Hosho Sadamune is accepted as the founder in practice (most Hosho school smiths have SADA as the first character of their name).

As stated above, the jihada is a pure masame-hada with jinie. (such a construction often leads to small tate-ware, which are considered acceptable). It will be noticed that the masame runs off at the mune close to the boshi and at the hasaki near the ha-machi.

The hamon is suguha in nie and has usual Yamato-den hataraki mentioned above as a result of the unique construction.

This sword here today demonstrates clearly this unique jihada and has a good sugata altogether. It also has a Honami kinpun mei (gold lacquered inscription) attributing the blade to Hosho Sadamune.

Yamato-den had an influence on Kyushu swords and it was from Yamato-den that Mino-den, which would gain great popularity in the Muromachi period, was developed by Shizu Saburo Kaneuji.

July 20, 2008

That is really strange the NBTHK comment seems in contradiction with its meaning, indeed, how can we discern if there are no works by Sadamune if there is no substantial peculiarity in the different swordsmiths works?

1) There are NO definitely genuine works by Hosho SADAMUNE found up to now. No matter what old compilations, kinpun-mei or western experts say. Therefore it is preferable to stick to well-documented members (SADAYOSHI, SADAKIYO and SADAOKI) of the Hosho-school in Kantei (not to be confused with appreciation).

2) Few individual traits doesn't mean none, but this is only valid for the safely documented members of the Hosho-school. There are differences in sugata, but it is not necessary to know them for Kantei and you probably won't find them in your books. Hosho SADAMUNE however is far from being safely documented and therefore should not appear in Kantei.

I'm not going to argue any further about this. If you desperately need to make the final statement. Go ahead.

reinhard

Ted Tenold · July 21, 2008

Thanks guys. I went with my first impression. Congrats also to others making the Yamato Hosho calls.

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