Blazeaglory Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 I've talked about these Menuki briefly in another thread in regards to a Koto tanto I own. But it wasn't until a couple days ago that I stumbled across similar Menuki online that were papered as Goto, so I started looking at mine a little closer. Prior to that, I never really examined them up close because I try not to handle my Nihonto often. In regards to the Menuki in this thread and pictured below, one ShiShi is standing on all four legs, body profiled, with head turned facing out. The other shi shi is sitting down scratching his chin/head (which is lifted towards the sky)... Both are enveloped by chrysanthemums/peonies. The detail is amazing! Other than testing for high purity gold, the little details really bring these to life! The tails are big and bushy with many carved lines giving a lifelike effect. Eyes, claws, teeth, little circles on the hips and other areas, etc... Anyways, other than ruining this tsuka and looking at the back for possible signature, is there a way to get an answer as to origin? Wait, I think I know that answer by now. Maybe I should ask if these are worth a Shinsa? To be honest, I bought this tanto more for the koshirae and Menuki than the blade itself. The blade is ok but a bit tired and out of polish. The tip is also a little dented in. Plus the Mei has kept me awake at night due to a Mekugi Ana being chiseled into the Mei. Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 Hi Dwain, There are a number of threads on how to identify Goto Shishi (search for something like "goto shishi"). Here's part of a book that someone else posted here a long time ago. I don't think that your Shishi have the standard Goto "secret" marks... 2 Quote
Blazeaglory Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 3:50 PM, Tanto54 said: Hi Dwain, There are a number of threads on how to identify Goto Shishi (search for something like "goto shishi"). Here's part of a book that someone else posted here a long time ago. I don't think that your Shishi have the standard Goto "secret" marks... Screen Shot 2019-01-30 at 10.42.27 AM.png Thanks for the reply and good info! I'm unsure because the tail looks spot on and the ridges in front of the tail are there as well. I think I can almost see the lines on the leg in one of the pics but the Tsuka-ito is covering it a bit. I mean I know how the game is played by now and my question about Goto is tough to answer but there are many similarities. I would never dismantle this tsuka tho. Next to Goto, who or what may these be? But here's some more pics for reference with matching tail and ridged spine (1st pic for spine and 2nd pic for tail). Also, try and see if you can find the lines on the leg/shin in the 3rd "non zoomed" pic. Looks to be the knee maybe? But either way, Goto or not, I really like these Menuki. I included a full pic of the Tsuka for reference. These Menuki aren't big but they aren't small either. Quote
Hoshi Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 The shishi which has his head straight at you does not strike me as classic goto design, but more of a Somin-inspired, late Edo thing which was en vogue. Goto shishi have archetypical postures and composition. as far as I know you had preset 'designs' that were pursued, and it didn't change very fast. Aside from the posture, the precision of the carving, the relief and the 'muscle' of the shishi also don't ring a bell as Goto. Whoever made these Menuki, I do not think they tried to imitate the old Goto shishi, but rather ran their own designs. 1 Quote
Blazeaglory Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 4:18 PM, CSM101 said: I have my doubts. Uwe G. On first glance, those ShiShi are almost a match as far as allot of the detail goes. Different posing but many similarities. That's what bugs me because every time I think I've found a close match, I see something that isn't quite right. But they seem to have the same tails, same nose and mouth, similar carved lines. The only difference I see is those ShiShi have claws on their paws while mine are a little more rounded. They look very similar. Maybe mine are made in Goto image? Quote
Blazeaglory Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 4:25 PM, Valric said: The shishi which has his head straight at you does not strike me as classic goto design, but more of a Somin-inspired, late Edo thing which was en vogue. Goto shishi have archetypical postures and composition. as far as I know you had preset 'designs' that were pursued, and it didn't change very fast. Aside from the posture, the precision of the carving, the relief and the 'muscle' of the shishi also don't ring a bell as Goto. Whoever made these Menuki, I do not think they tried to imitate the old Goto shishi, but rather ran their own designs. Thanks. I'll have to research Somin. Really I just want to know their origin. It's a curse of mine. And honestly, I just realized that Goto is a Koto school correct? I wrongly assumed Goto was active until the 19th century. The tanto with these Menuki is Koto but it looks like the koshirae itself is late Edo. So you might be right about the Menuki. I'm not disagreeing with everyone, I just like to go into detail and push others to do the same. So sometimes I come across as aloof or in denial, but in reality all I want to do is explore every little option and detail... Also, this website is a shrine for Nihonto information. The more pics and correct info we accumulate, the better IMO. Until now, these gold Menuki were somewhat lost to the world. Now they are documented and secured for anyone to see, which brings us a little closer to helping that person in the future who thinks he might have something worth discussing. We can now add these Menuki to the other gold Shi-Shi online for comparison and when (or if) I ever find out exactly what they are, I can add that information here as well. Anyways, I know I know, TMI and I'm rambling. I'm bored sitting in my car at work doing nothing, so please forgive my long windedness ... Before I shut up for the day, i was going to ask... Do you think these Menuki look similar? Of all the searching I've done. I haven't come across many gold shi shi Menuki that are with peony or scratching. Its almost comical! Thanks for all the info everyone! Cya! Here's a link to the pic below https://www.mfa.org/collections/object/menuki-in-the-form-of-two-shishi-9860 Quote
Tanto54 Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 Dear Dwain, Like Chris said, some schools had designs that they followed pretty closely. Shishi with Botan (peony) is often Omori or Yokoya (i.e., Somin or Soyo). I'm not saying that your menuki are from those schools, I'm just saying that is a place to look when you see Shishi with Botan. Also, note the different marks on the fur. Goto is most often like the one that you posted from MFA or Uwe posted. Yours has swirls (like a pinwheel) that are usually not Goto. 1 Quote
Blazeaglory Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 7:00 PM, Tanto54 said: Dear Dwain, Like Chris said, some schools had designs that they followed pretty closely. Shishi with Botan (peony) is often Omori or Yokoya (i.e., Somin or Soyo). I'm not saying that your menuki are from those schools, I'm just saying that is a place to look when you see Shishi with Botan. Also, note the different marks on the fur. Goto is most often like the one that you posted from MFA or Uwe posted. Yours has swirls (like a pinwheel) that are usually not Goto. IMG_6323 copy.jpg Yes. I can totally see that. Thanks to this thread, I'm ruling out Goto. And you're right, the closest I've come to finding the "pinwheel" design was Yokoya. I have noticed that many peony Menuki from Yokoya are very similar in design as well. Also, side note, I did manage to find a gold ShiShi on NMB that has pinwheels which are close but not exact, and other features are a bit different as well. See below. Anyways, I hope this thread can be useful to others in the future. And thanks again Quote
nagamaki - Franco Posted January 30, 2019 Report Posted January 30, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 8:19 PM, Blazeaglory said: Thanks to this thread, I'm ruling out Goto. 1 Quote
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