Is this a fatal flaw?

[Hermes]

Thanks of any help, is there a fatal flaw below?

 

 

James

[Brian]

James,

 

Take this as just my personal opinion until verified or proved wrong by others, but I would say not.

It is ugly..along with the other carbon pits there, but it looks like a bad open ware in the hamon. Does it go through to the other side?

I think it would just be considered undesirable and ugly, but not fatal, and not a hagire imho.

There is a vertical "shadow" mark coming down from it, but I am not sure if that is a crack..doesn't appear to be.

 

Brian

[Hermes]

Thanks Brian, not my sword, it's listed on Ebay, judging from the pictures posted i would say the flaws do not got through to the other side, which i would have guessed as fatal flaws myself.

 

James

[Stephen]

this page may come in handy

[Guest reinhard]

These ARE fatal flaws and further polishing will make them even more obvious. The blade is rotten to the core. ToGishi tried to hide it previously by "squeezing" the surface skilfully, but it won't get any better in the future. On the contrary: Handing this sword to a less experienced polisher, he will rip the rotten areas beyond repair.

 

reinhard

[Lorenzo]

I agree with Reinhard. Look at the shape of the ha in the first picture. The hamachi is present, yet, from there to the end of the picture in the right, i can see a gentle curve that maybe is a polishing defectness, most of all in the point of the dip. Also, this rust dips are right there in the hamon, while the hamon itself is very low. A polishing restoration there will took away too much metal to hide the flaw. Also, the blade looks tired to me.

Speaking about the resistence of the weapon to stress, maybe we can't call this flaws as fatal, but in terms of sword appreciation this really are fatal.

[Brian]

Reinhard,

 

How do you classify this as fatal? "Fatal flaws"is another term that is loosely defined as meaning the sword would fail under use, or has a weak spot that would cause breakage. Afaik, fatal flaws are hamon incomplete, karasuguchi, chips through the hamon and hagire. The term fatal flaw is a Nihonto term that is fairly well defined by collectors, and not subject to interpretation as to our own personal feelings. Undesirable flaw, yes. But fatal?

Many of the other flaws are ugly, and should cause us not to buy a blade..but are not considered fatal.

These include fukure, ware, tired blades, umegane etc.

I am going by pages such as these: http://members.shaw.ca/nihontonut/glossary.html and http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/kizu.htm

While we all agree this blade shouldn't be purchased, is it technically really a fatal flaw?

 

Brian

[AndreasU]

I also disagree with Reinhard's opinion. From the other side, if he says this is a fatal flaws then he sure means "from the collectors point of view"

 

As most of us have not a single idea how one of these weapons are handled correctly (maybe some of the ones who are practicing Tameshigiri) our opinions ar totally unimportant. "from the view of a real samurai"

 

As these Weapons will never be used for fighting again also no one can ever proof how strong, even with these pits, this blade remains.

 

I have a lot experience with metals and I am very very sure that even this blade will cut very very well trough flesh and bone, and that's what these blades are made for.

 

Surely these parts especially the one part with the horizontal line, will maybe break out of the blade if it will strik the mune of another sword but from the fighting technique this is more than unlikely that this part will ever be used as the lenght of the sword will mainly be used to "stay away" from an enemy. So the first third of the sword is the area that will get the most "stress"

 

But from the collecting point of view, I also would never buy a blade like this! Even that I know the above said things, I would know every time that they exist and it will simply disturb my eye.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I have a lot experience with metals and I am very very sure that even this blade will cut very very well trough flesh and bone, and that's what these blades are made for.

 

As we don't know the intentions of the owner/poster and just to be sure noone get hurt

I would highlight that this particular blade might cut once, two or even ten times thru flesh

but it is not reliable.

 

If you can't rely a blade, then it's doomed under the practical point of view , no matter if the

defects it already has falls into the "listed fatal flaws" or not (yet but almost for sure the

next polish).

 

Please don't cut with this blade.

[Lorenzo]

I absolutely agree. Even if it is not an hagire, the list of fatal flaws can't cover all cases. In my opinion, this dip cover around 60% of the resistent area of the hamon. That is similar to an hagire long as an half of the deepness of the hamon. In this case, i consider it a fatal flaw, even if i am well awared about wich kizu are commonly defined as fatal.

[Ken-Hawaii]

As someone who does practice tameshigiri with some regularity - at least when I can afford to ship in tatami omote - let me add my two cents to this discussion.

 

From a practical cutting standpoint, this blade would certainly cut tatami, which is the equivalent of flesh (rather than bone) with no problem at all. I would advise against using it to cut bamboo - the bone equivalent - but would use it if I had nothing else, & didn't much care whether the blade survived. And even if it did break, I could still use it to cut as a kodachi. A weapon is a weapon. Would it be my first choice? Hell, no! But as I've cut even with an iaito (dulled zinc-beryllium blade), the ha on this blade looks intact enough to do some damage.

 

If you've watched Kurosawa's classic movie Seven Samurai, you might have noted that the ronin lined up a bunch of katana & tachi & stuck them in the dirt, fully expecting that the cheap blades would break when they cut in battle. This would be one of those blades.

[Brian]

All,

 

I don't know how the subject of cutting tests came into this discussion. I don't see any indication this blade is, was, or would be used for cutting. It could be a short wakizashi even?

The point about fatal flaws is a theoretical one. Fatal flaws would theoretically fail in battle but are not subjected to tests to prove that. Simple fact is that a fatal flaw is as defined by collectors and the Nihonto world. A hamon running off the edge somewhere is a fatal flaw to collectors. Whether that is borne out in testing or not is irrelevant really, it affects the collectability and hence the price. In this case, a bad flaw like this would negate collector interest too, whether fatal or not. But I don't see any indication that the OP wants to use it for martial arts? If so..that is an entirely different ballgame... I agree with Carlo completely that we don't know the intentions of the original poser, and this blade shouldn't be used for cutting anyways.

 

Brian

[Lorenzo]

exactly.

[remzy]

Regardless of the non existant resellability of this piece.. if you focus on whats good on it im sure you can get a fairly decent piece to study at a significantly discounted price, if the seller know what hes talking about.

 

Remy

[Guido]

... a fairly decent piece to study ...

If one is into studying various forms of Kizu it might be a great deal indeed.

 

Sorry, but I never understood the rationale behind so called "study pieces".

[remzy]

Guido, if you chose to focus on the negatives that is your prerogative, i chose to look for the positives about things.

[Brian]

[Guest reinhard]

Reinhard,

How do you classify this as fatal? Undesirable flaw, yes. But fatal?

 

First of all, I classify swords from a collector's point of view. The times of swords as weapons are over. Argueing wether a blade is still capable of cutting through one or more bodies, is a romantic, nostalgic attitude I'm not willing to discuss for the 101st time. Hachiman uses laser guided rockets and automatic guns by now.

Flaws which cannot be removed, especially those in the Ha, I'd call fatal from a collectors point of view; but I have to admit, I made my judgement too fast. There are very bad flaws like the ones here, which can be accepted under certain circumstances. A Ko-Bizen HIROMITSU tachi in the former Compton collection showed similar flaws. They are acceptable considering the age (late Heian/early Kamakura period) and the rarity of this smith's work. Maybe the sword under discussion is of similar importance. In that case the flaws would be only undesirable. If it is not (which is what I forestalled), the flaws are fatal, for they show nothing but a worn and tired blade beyond repair, which is not acceptable for a serious collector.

 

reinhard

[Guido]

You're almost as evil as I am, Brian.

Have some Sushi:

[remzy]

OMG! you've found NEMO!

[Ted Tenold]

Looks more like a "Marlin Maki" to me. Nemo is probably still revolving on the kaiten. Now where's my order of Dory Sashimi??

 

Look away kids......just look away.

 

And just so my post isn't completely off topic.....

 

Flaws are one of those things that are contextual in nature, which is pretty much where the discussion is going imho. Our eyes are naturally drawn to two things; beauty and detraction. If we're looking at a fantastic sword by say, Osafune Nagamitsu, with flaw such as this, the age in conjunction with the beauty and skill of the overall work can overrule the kizu that may be present. However in a Shinto piece, much less so, and a Shinshinto piece quite dreadful. On a mediocre, tired, low skilled (or all inclusive) sword of any period, well, then it's mearly a sharpened piece of steel with questionable functional durability. If function is all that's sought, there's lots of options for mediocre swords out there without flaws, so what was the question again??? :|

 

So that riddle of "What is art?" starts rearing it's head again. A long time go I was looking for an answer to this and I asked a friend of mine (a prominent art dealer) how he defined the differences in art and I loved the answer he gave me;

 

"I can't describe to you the differences between art and pornography, but I know it when I see them".

[Ford Hallam]

"I can't describe to you the differences between art and pornography, but I know it when I see them".

 

this sounds remarkably like; " I don't know a lot about art but I know what I like....."

 

both statements being utterly self referential ( ie; egocentric ) :?

 

p.s. and I have to add ( echoing Guido ); why bother studying flawed, or otherwise "ugly" work, when wanting to understand Japanese art swords

 

what is to be gained from looking at second rate, or utterly buggered work....?

[Pete Klein]

Guido et. al.: It has been my experience that a 'study piece' is roughly the equivalent of a 'school piece'. It is either a way for a seller to explain away an item which cannot be substantiated or for a buyer to explain away a purchase which cannot be substantiated. In either case the item is sub-standard and the owner will never be sated.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ford, I agree studying flaws is counterproductive. However, I must agree as well that the above statement " I don't know a lot about art but I know what I like....." is egocentric. Isn't art one of the most egocentric of past times though, being 100% subjective. My tastes and conceptions determine my perception thus of course it is me that is the frame of reference not external bias. How can one appreciate something as art if they do not even like it. Conversely one can appreciate the skill, dare I say, craftsmanship, in its production. Moreover most aficionado's in the art world seem to follow group consensus in what is art and what falls short. How many times has genius been overlooked until posthumously realisation comes knocking. I am not trying to start an argument or insult art or its artists in any way but merely want to point out that craftsmanship can be actively appreciated to just as full an extent without labeling it as art, although in some eyes it may be. In Nihonto the lines are more delineated, for the most part by others, in that it is through these teachers that we come to recognise truly great work as being an art form. When we become knowledgeable enough after many years then we may truly know art from just good workmanship. I suspect I will have to reach 100 or so, but, I can hope. Just food for thought. John

[remzy]

"I can't describe to you the differences between art and pornography, but I know it when I see them".

 

p.s. and I have to add ( echoing Guido ); why bother studying flawed, or otherwise "ugly" work, when wanting to understand Japanese art swords

 

what is to be gained from looking at second rate, or utterly buggered work....?

 

You will have to ask this question to the persons that grant flawed juyos their title, as it seem they will have more credibility than anyone.

[Brian]

That I think has already been well explained before. Important works are allowed some flaws due to their nature and importance in the grand scheme of things. They are simply of such a high standard that flaws can be overlooked in favor of the other factors. I see no problem with that at all, and agree with most of the posts here.

I do see a marked difference between Ted's (humorous) comment of "I can't describe to you the differences between art and pornography, but I know it when I see them" and likening this to "I don't know a lot about art but I know what I like....."

In the first instance, this comes from someone who has spent much time studying true art, and therefore knows the differences and what to look for. He knows what good art looks like, and when presented with meaningless "pornography" imitating art, he is able to know instinctively the difference.

In the second case, the person does not know what good art is, and is therefore unable to differentiate between good art and mediocre craftsmanship. Relying on gut instinct only works if you have a background of an "informed and learned" gut :lol:

So what I am saying basically, is that in effect we all agree that you need to study good works in order to be able to identify what is good and what is bad. You can't study flaws and then identify a good work from a lack of them...you study great workmanship and then notice what is lacking in lesser works.

If some with limited budgets want lesser pieces to fill a desire or for any other reasons, I don't have a problem with that just as long as they recognize that this is a separate goal from studying the best out there and they don't consider it a substitute for what we are aiming at. However I do think that most of the comments are still in agreement about what to study and why we study it.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Hi John,

 

I think you are absolutely right, art appreciation is by it's very nature, subjective. The "trick" that the connoisseur attempts is to go beyond that subjectivity. To try to see things from a more broad, less personal, assessment but I get the feeling you were sort of beginning to express exactly that. I think also, like you, that part of that development comes from understanding the craftsmanship and skill that is demanded of these items.

 

Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear in my use of the word, egocentric. What I was getting at was the fact that neither really offers us anything useful in our own pursuit of the answer to the question; "is it/what is art?"

 

as for this;

when presented with meaningless "pornography"

...isn't that just yet again someone else's unverifiable opinion?

[Brian]

Indeed...but I am not about to post any, and see if I can get its meaning verified

 

Brian

[Hermes]

Thanks to all, my intention in posting this was not to bid on it, but to learn about such flaws as these, after reading what is a fatal flaw, flaws like this are in a gray area IMO and still are in my mind, but i still will come away with some insight from this thread. BTW the sword has 27.5" cutting edge.

 

For me, i would put this one in the fatal to buy in category, fatal to look at, fatal to think about, if i go to battle, my sword will only come into play if i run out of ammo, so cutting tests are not needed on any questionable blade, just kidding about going into battle at my age. hehe

 

James