Constructing swords from meteorites

[Lee Bray]

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/kenda ... tsword.htm

 

A blade made from 50% 1095 and 50% meteoritic iron by bladesmith Rick Barrett.

Scant detail in the article but a couple of pictures and the smith is easily contactable for possible information.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Many thanks, Lee. I've left Rick an e-mail.

 

I'm coming up with more info on this topic than I expected. Hope there's enough for the paper, which I'll of course post here.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Ken, I m in town for a short time and managed to photo these pics for you. The abstract is fairly lengthy and I obtained it from Zubal Books in Cleveland. I doubt they have another but you might try one of the second hand book suppliers. John

[John A Stuart]

The final paragraph of the intro. John

[Ken-Hawaii]

Wow, that looks very interesting, John. Thanks for digging that info out. No links to it on the Web, of course, so I'll take your advice & try my local bookstores.

 

I had an interesting conversation with a Buddhist priest I know who also swings swords. He has seen several blades with meteoric iron in the Japanese temples he visits, & has promised to copy down whatever information is posted with them the next trip he makes. There are evidently quite a few Japanese religious sites that have either meteorites or objects made from them - I wonder how things like that fit into the Japanese psyche?

 

Thanks again for helping out.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ken,

 

I just came across this rather intriguing passage in the introduction of the Red Cross Catalogue. This was written by Henri Joly at the start of the first world war.

 

 

 

hope this keeps the fire burning :D

 

regards, Ford

[Ken-Hawaii]

  Ford Hallam said:

Hi Ken,

 

I just came across this rather intriguing passage in the introduction of the Red Cross Catalogue. This was written by Henri Joly at the start of the first world war.

 

regards, Ford

 

Ford, are we talking about the same Red Cross as we have in the U.S. helping people in disasters? The content in your scanned page sure doesn't look like it! Can you please give me a cross-reference (ISBN, etc.)? This snippet does look very promising!

 

I've been checking out the Indonesians' use of meteoric iron, but haven't found a link between them & the Japanese as far as metals transfer. Now I can check out what India did in the same period. :D What's another few hundred million people to filter through...? :?

 

Mahalo! (Thanks!)

[Ken-Hawaii]

Never mind, Ford. I found the book on the Satcho.com Web-site:

 

Japanese ART & HANDICRAFT

H. Joly and K. Tomita (r.1976)

Originally published in 1916 as a limited edition of 175 copies, this is the renown "Red Cross" catalog. As a fundraiser for the British Red Cross, this loan exhibition combined outstanding examples of Japanese paintings, prints, drawings, sculpture, netsuke, lacquer, inro, and metalwork. Sword fittings in particular are well presented taking nearly half of the book. 1,376 Items are illustrated in 162 b&w and 8 color plates. Each item is described and extensive documentation is also provided regarding the history of the major schools.

395 pages, 10¼ x 12¼" hardcover

 

Of course they don't have any copies available right now.... One more item to find.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Ken,

 

yes, that's the one. A useful reference. The only reference I found to your quest was that little section though. Might be worth doing a search online for any other papers by Joly.

 

I'll keep an eye open...

 

regards, Ford

[Chris Osborne]

I have been considering asking Rick to add some meteoric iron in with the tamahagane on a katana he's making for me just for the coolness factor of it. He brought a broadsword down with him to take to a panel we did at a convention here in Atlanta. It was made from 1095 and meteoric iron like the one above. It was a very beautiful blade, one of the few of that type that I would want for myself actually.

 

Rick told me that it was used quite often in many cultures in the past for sword making.

[Grey Doffin]

The book, Two Early Chinese Bronze Weapons etc. can be had for $7. plus postage from Parker-Fox LLC Books: parker-fox@msn.com

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

Thanks for the reference, Grey, & my apologies for the late reply. I have a fairly severe neck injury, & have been laid up for the past 10 days. Can't use my computer very often because I don't hold my neck right, according to my doctor....

 

I'll order a copy of that book tomorrow, as it may help in my quest.

 

Chris, did Rick tell you that adding meteoritic iron will likely wipe out any hamon? Something to do with excess nickel. :?

[Chris Osborne]

Hi Ken,

Sorry to hear about your injury I hope you're feeling well.

 

As for the meteoritic iron, I haven't even spoken with Rick about it, although I had no idea about any issues with the heat treat. No biggie really, just thought it might be neat.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm not sure it's the heat treatment, Chris. I got the following e-mail from Dan Fronefield, who makes some absolutely gorgeous knives from meteors (http://meteorforge.net):

 

"In talking to my fellow knifemakers, it seems that nickel increase hardenability...not as much as manganese, but I believe it does this by stabalizing austenite a bit.. In doing so I believe it acts to "even out" cooling curves....and therefore the activity in hamon. As I said earlier, I can get hamons, but they are fairly flat ... looses the "wow" factor. That makes me think that lack of hamon activity might be a good "tell" for a Japanese blade that was made using meteorite. I can't say that I've ever seen one with no activity, but then it would be rare to see such a one in published books on Japanese swords where only the best are shown. I did spend a number of hours in a Japanese sword museum in Tokyo several years ago, but I just don't recall the trip well enough to remember what I saw."

 

I'm still working with Dan to figure out if there's some way to create a katana blade WITH hamon & WITH meteoritic iron. I'll keep the forum posted.

[bluboxer]

Greetings Ken,found an interesting article about some artifacts found in a Polish museum that indicated an absence of Ni in the sample.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//ful ... 6.000.html

Also;techniques used to make isotopic determinations may be utilized to reduce the Ni content.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985LPSC...15..677S

Also;elemental compositions from numerous meteoritic deposits from around the world.

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cg ... sid=6006l3

Seems to me that the only difference between terrestrial iron and "space" iron are the alloying elements and the lack of oxides.The unique features of steel made with meteoritic iron can most likely be replicated.

Good luck,

Alan

[Macadaciouse]

The metallurgical discussion on the merit of a meteoric sword seem to be exhausted, but as a sidenote the cornerstone in the kaab in Mecca (the exact place observant Muslims face each day to pray) is a meteorite, and in Islam it is the most sacred relic on earth. Just an interesting tangent.

Back on swords, I know Yoshindo Yoshihara made a blade or two out of meteors as an experiment a few years ago, I imagine they turned out well. I've always been taught the main alloying quality of nickel in steel is reducing oxidization, but something like vanadium would certainly make a sword vastly superior from blades made from terrestrial steel (let's be honest, traditional Japanese steel is basically of a poor quality, which is why it takes a master smith to make an excellent blade)

[Ken-Hawaii]

Very nice find, Alan! Those links definitely appeal to the engineer in me! And I was also aware of the blades made by Yoshihara (I have several of his books), but he hasn't answered my e-mail as yet. I'd heard about the kaab meteorite in Mecca, too, but kinda' doubt they'd let me in to check it out....

 

This is a very slow process, I'll admit, but I'm not giving up on my quest to write that paper. Please continue to send me these tidbits so I can press on!

[Ford Hallam]

  Quote

traditional Japanese steel is basically of a poor quality

 

that's an inflammatory statement if ever I read one....you'll need to qualify that opinion, I think :D ....or there'll be a fatwa on your head issued by the General Council of unbiased Nihontophiles

[Brian]

Just a gentle nudge to keep this Nihonto related, and not veer off too far into the manufacture of modern replicas.

The ones made by Yoshindo Yoshihara are fine..but the forging of modern hybrids by Western makers is a topic for one of the bladesmith forums. Just trying to keep this strictly Nihonto related, even if it is interesting.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Ken-Hawaii]

My paper is actually coming together, but I do need some help in one specific area.

 

On the Web-page http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9910&L=iaido-l&P=23876, there is the following reference:

 

  Quote

In 1890, a lone prospector discovered a lump of iron weighing 22.7 kg in a Japanese mountain range, a rock which is now on display at the National Science Museum in Tokyo. Several years after discovery, scientists learned it was an iron meteorite, so called because many meteorites have large iron contents.

 

However, about a quarter of the celestial rock has been cut out because a Japanese politician, Takeaki Enomoto, Foreign Affairs Minister at the time, bought the meteorite. He was particularly fascinated by the 'iron from the stars." He had the iron meteorite made into a sword to present to the Crown Prince, later to become Emperor Taisho.

 

Although the meteorite was 89.5% iron, it also contained 9% nickel, and traces of cobalt, copper, tin, phosphorus, sulfur, and carbon, which made it very difficult to work with. Forging by folding it over and over did not go well. Forging had to be carried out after heating the sword white hot.

 

One long sword and two short swords were made by the process, and despite the difficulties, the steel from the meteorite had a magnificent finish, the pattern on the blade resembling knots in a piece of wood. Enomoto named these swords the Shooting Star Swords when he received them from the swordsmith, Kunimune Okayoshi, in 1898. He donated the long sword to Emperor Taisho. The Enomoto family kept the two short swords.

 

I have been trying to find some more info about these swords, but have run into the proverbial brick wall - too many bloody anime/manga/game references to wade through!! If any of you are willing to spend a bit of time finding some "meat" on this topic, specifically the presentation of the sword to Emperor Taisho, I hope to have my first draft done in a week or two, & will attach a link to the PDF file for comments, suggestions, & fireballs.

Thanks!

[Nobody]

  Ken-Hawaii said:

I have been trying to find some more info about these swords, but have run into the proverbial brick wall - too many bloody anime/manga/game references to wade through!! If any of you are willing to spend a bit of time finding some "meat" on this topic, specifically the presentation of the sword to Emperor Taisho, I hope to have my first draft done in a week or two, & will attach a link to the PDF file for comments, suggestions, & fireballs.

I already wrote about the swords in this thread.

See the first response to the topic in this thread.

[kusunokimasahige]

anyone ever tried to construct meteorites from swords?

 

:lol:

 

KM

[Nobody]

Sorry for rehashing this old thread.

 

I accidentally found this sword today. The sword is named Insei-ken (隕星剣). It is made by Fujiyasu Masahira (藤安将平) in 1992. He is a sword smith in Fukushima-ken. The customer and the present owner of the sword is Mr. Ohno Hiroaki (大野裕明). He purchased 30 kg of Canyon Diablo meteorite for this purpus. The sword is a ken, and its blade length is 40 cm.

 

Ref. http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~space84/inseiken.htm

[Brian]

Fantastic find Moriyama san!

The mind boggles at how much 30kg of meteorite must have cost

 

Brian

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm resurrecting this thread because of some interesting new information.

 

First, meteorites aren't all that expensive, Brian. I just bought a 1300-gram Campo de Cielo iron meteorite for $200, & I will be sending it via Piers to a Bizen swordsmith to be turned into a modern tosho. I also have a few other large specimens, ranging from 8 to 25 kg, none of which broke my budget.

 

For a bit of background, my wife & I traveled to Okayama last month (as detailed in another thread) & toured the Bizen-Osafune Sword Village, with Piers as our "tour guide." We met Ando-san, a Bizen smith who was in the final process of creating a katana from a meteorite - it was almost ready to go to polishing when we saw it. As I've been interested in blades like his, I offered to send him another iron meteorite for his next blade, & he accepted.

 

As Ando-san has no idea about the type or composition of his first meteorite, there's no way to determine whether the second blade will look like the first one, but I'm hoping to get some idea of the jigane, jihada, & hamon, as I'm hoping to buy the second blade. The first photo I shot of the katana is at http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2337/meteoritekatana3.jpg, & a shot of Ando-san with his blade is at http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7010/smithmeteoritekatana.jpg. The exact composition of the meteorite I'm sending to him is well known, so I'll be able to report based on known composition.

 

I'll post more on this as info is available.

 

Ken

[cabowen]

The two I have seen had rather gaudy looking hada due to the nickle in the meteorite. I has also told that they only added a small amount of meteorite to the steel (perhaps because too much would make it very difficult to forge properly? Or maybe because it is expensive???)

[Ken-Hawaii]

Not expensive, Chris, as I explained, but certainly a lot different in composition from tamahagane. What do you mean by gaudy-looking hada? I'm expecting some photos from Ando-san (actually, probably from Piers) as his blade gets polished, & I'll of course post them.

 

Ken

[george trotter]

I think this is relevent?...while we are all free, and entitled, to buy/sell/make/commission/collect/study/praise/condemn anything connected with nihonto that we are of a mind to do, and I am in no way passing comment on this project, but can I ask:

Remembering the truism that a nihonto is made with tamahagane...does this meteor iron raises the old "is it a nihonto" question again?

I know that "namban tetsu" is acceptable as a legitimate part of the development/history of nihonto, and indeed, it is not possible for most to tell if it is present or not, but conversely, "yo tetsu" is not acceptable, even if in many cases it is in a sword that was made with traditional techniques and has hada and nie. How will "tenban tetsu" fit into this framework?

There are those who just won't accept that a sword stamped with a star is a nihonto, I wonder how they will be with a sword made from a star? (get it? star? haha). Just thinking out loud.

Hope this is a legitimate contribution to the thread, if not, just move it or blast me off into orbit Brian (get it? orbit? I'm on fire this morning, or maybe my coffee was too strong! haha).

Regards,

[cabowen]

  Ken-Hawaii said:

Not expensive, Chris, as I explained, but certainly a lot different in composition from tamahagane. What do you mean by gaudy-looking hada? I'm expecting some photos from Ando-san (actually, probably from Piers) as his blade gets polished, & I'll of course post them.

 

Ken

 

 

Guess it depends on the meteorite...some can be quite expensive...

 

The hada looks like western damascus..

 

Sounds like a great project- please keep us up to date as it comes to fruition...

[Ken-Hawaii]

I vote for the coffee, George.

 

Actually, it is a good question. But I have to assume that an experienced Bizen smith would know if his blades wouldn't be considered as Nihonto, & probably wouldn't waste his time & effort. Piers & I heard from several people at & near the Village that smiths just aren't selling enough blades to make a living, & that there might next be a next-generation of them, so making an unsellable tosho doesn't sound like a logical thing.

 

Ken