Engraving After Casting?

[Steves87]

Hello, I have this Nanban Tsuba, which is your regular two dragon design (that seems to be cast in mass production) except I feel this one has been engraved, the eyes have definitely been dot inlayed and there seems to be an 'over' engravement on one of the ear tips.

What I am wondering though, was there ever a time when a 'base' Tsuba shape was cast and then the finer details engraved in?

I can see the ears from one side of the Tsuba to the other are similar - left to left and right to right in shape which is my main reason for thinking this is cast and then the inlay eyes and finer engravings done after.

Other than this i cannot say that I see any other obvious telltale signs of casting, no veins, missmatched joins or dimples and compared to all other Nanban Tsuba of the same design, this is by far the most defined I have seen.

I would really like to know if this was a done practice and if yes, is this one of those Tsuba?

Thank you for your time

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

This is, I think, a really nice NANBAN TSUBA. There is a good possibility that it was worked on after casting, but we should not believe in mass production as we can have it today. Copies had to be done one by one in a clay or special sand mold, and I am sure not every item came out good enough for sale. I think it is safe to say that every single TSUBA had to be worked on to make the casting process invisible, and that did not mean the gold inlays alone.

But this is just my personal impression as someone who works with iron, and not safe knowledge.     

[vajo]

I bought this one from Higo san. A very nice one with deep and sharp kebori. The color of the iron is very nice.

 

[Steves87]

Thanks Jean, that is a good point I had not considered before. My thoughts of mass production are very modern and the outputs of todays mass production vs outputs of mass production 200 years ago would be as different as night and day.

 

Chris, that is another one of the better Nanban of this design that I have seen. The clarity of the one I have was the whole reason I bought it.

[TETSUGENDO]

Stephen,  as you can see designs can be very similar.  Generally 'mass production' means, in this instance, particular models were produced in multiples by hand.  There are very late cast copies with little hand work made for the western market...that is not the case here.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

[vajo]

A very bad example of this motif:

 

[kissakai]

Hope I'm not poaching the post but does anyone have any non ferrous Namban tsuba

I have two and think non iron is quite rare

[Marius]

And old thread regarding casting:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7939-the-last-word-on-cast-iron-tsuba/

[vajo]

The color under normal day light.

 

[Bazza]

Chris, I think there is a white balance issue with your two photos??  Too much blue in the colour???

 

EDIT: What is the tsuba on the right in the first photo??  I have a feeling you've shown it before???

 

BaZZa.

[vajo]

Hi Bazza

its a Momoyama Yamakichibei. 

Dimensions: 7.2cm x 7.05cm x 0.45cm

 

Iron looks like Raku bowls.

 

The color looks like this in normal light. The other picture above was made with flashlight from the camera.

[Steves87]

A very bad example of this motif:

 

a_false_one_from_ebay2.jpg

Yes! This is what I see all the time, so I really jumped on mine when it came up. I probably paid too much for it ($60aud) but I 'needed' it.

 

Thanks for all replies, I was able to re-adjust my understanding of 'mass produced' which I think is a huge positive for my future collecting.

 

I guess the question is for me now, would this be a Japanese made Tsuba? I bought it from a Japanese seller, but as I understand it, that doesnt mean much these internet days.

[Marius]

And an excellent resource on "namban" tsuba (regrettably, on Facebook):

 

https://www.facebook.com/Asian-Export-sword-guards-and-Nanban-tsuba-564035753684007/

[ROKUJURO]

....I guess the question is for me now, would this be a Japanese made Tsuba? ......

I am not a NAMBAN expert, but some have indeed been made in China, others were from HIZEN province.

[Tanto54]

I re-read the link Marius provided on casting and want to correct an erroneous point that Chris Bowen made in that thread that could really mislead anyone researching the use and methods of cast iron.  Chris claimed experience in casting iron and rebutted another member's comment about making multiple copies from a mold.  Chris said that was not possible because the molding was done in sand and therefore the mold was destroyed and couldn't be used to make multiple copies.  Chris is wrong because most often the true mold is a "positive" mold (made of wood or some other easy to model hard material) that is pressed into the wet sand to make a "negative" mold (and Chris should have known that if he had experience in sand casting).  Therefore, many sand molds and copies could be made from that one "positive" mold very quickly.

 

Just to be clear - I'm not saying that Japanese made cast iron tsuba before the Meji period.  I don't have enough information to know one way or the other, so I am inclined to rely on the expertise of someone like Ford on that issue.  Also, as I am often involved in trying to identify modern cast items that are masquerading as antique, I want to clarify the difference between antique sand casting, which does not reproduce fine detail, and modern investment casting (and vulcanized molding), which can reproduce very fine details down to signatures and even fingerprints.

[Tanto54]

Here's a short Youtube video on modern sand casting in Japan (notice the tsuba shaped trivets on the shelves at 2:12):

 

[Steves87]

I see them, definitely Tsuba shaped, interesting!

 

I did quite a bit of sand casting in high school (well over 20 years ago) and all i really remember is nothing came out right and the ones that did, needed massive amounts of further fine work to look even remotely respectable.

Is vulcanised moulding able to be done with metals or is it a rubber/plastic thing at this stage? forgive me, I should just google it

[Tanto54]

Dear Stephen,

 

The rubber is used to make an exact mold of an existing object (for example, a tsuba that you want to copy).  Once the rubber is set, the object is removed from the rubber mold.  Then hot wax is injected into the rubber mold under pressure.  Once the wax is cooled, it is removed and placed in investment (which is like plaster of paris).  The investment is then put in a kiln, melting out the wax.  Thereafter, molten metal is poured into the cavity left in the hardened investment (where the wax copy was).  After the metal cools a bit, the investment is dissolved in water leaving the metal copy.  If done properly, this process can make a very good copy that has very fine details (as I mentioned before, up to the level of showing finger prints or a very clean signature in a copied tsuba).

[vajo]

And this is made 200 or 300 years ago?

[Steves87]

Hope I'm not poaching the post but does anyone have any non ferrous Namban tsuba

I have two and think non iron is quite rare

 

Hi Grev, Ive been meaning to ask, would you be able to post some pictures in this thread? Id love to see them

thank you

[kissakai]

Will do later possibly just two tsuba

[IanB]

Sand casting would not be practical for an item like a namban tsuba as the columns left in the mould that would form the perforations would just collapse when hit by the molten metal. . I used to have a book, which was stolen years ago, written around 1900 that dealt with the Arts and Crafts techniques for making jewellery, but which had a big section on Japanese techniques written by someone who taught at the Tokyo School of Art. The casting technique he described was to model the object in wax and then cover it with a coating of fine clay mixed with paper fibres. Over this was a thicker layer of clay mixed with straw. Before casting, the mould was heated to red heat, melting out the wax, but also burning out the paper fibres and straw to leave a porous mould from which gases could escape but the metal could not, ensuring the metal filled the mould and finest details. I have advocated for years that a lot of tsuba were made this way, the resulting cast iron being converted to malleable iron by subsequent heating in iron oxide.

Ian Bottomley   

[Steves87]

Thank you Ian, what a shame you do not have that book, would you remember the exact name by any chance?

[kissakai]

Interesting information Ian

[kissakai]

My two kinko Namban tsuba. Yes they have been tested with a magnet

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grev

 

 

 

[Steves87]

Thank you Grev, that first top one really calls to me. I will have to put one on my 'future Tsuba' list.

I definitely have not seen the soft metal Nanban before, I like the look of it more than the iron made.

Is the sekigane on the second one a separate piece?

[ROKUJURO]

And this was made 200 or 300 years ago?

No, rubber and silicone are more recent inventions. The clay/sand mold system is still used industrially today. 

[kissakai]

Steve

1st one has a soft and tactile feeling that is very nice in the hand

The rounded edges to the 'sukashi' are very well done

The 2nd has a small sekigane and you can see on one part it cover the punch mark

This originally was too 'blingy' for me and I thought I may get it stripped

I was advised the plating was original so I've not nor will not touch it and it has grown on me

 

 

Grev

[ROKUJURO]

..... I have advocated for years that a lot of tsuba were made this way, the resulting cast iron being converted to malleable iron by subsequent heating in iron oxide.....   

That sounds reasonable, but is this only a theory or is there any evidence for such a procedure? 

[IanB]

Rokujuro,   Yes I think there is. First there is the hoary old tale (can't remember the precise details) where a spear-man advocates putting the tsuba in a rice mortar and selecting those that don't break when struck by the pestle. Since the pestle and mortar are wood, this is a clear indication that the tsuba being tested were brittle - i.e. cast iron. Any tsuba of forged iron would at the very worst when subjected to the pounding would bend not shatter. Secondly - the so-called bones that are revealed by wear on the rim of some tsuba. I am convinced these are simply small regions of the original cast iron that have not carburised, and, if you think cast iron is soft but brittle, it isn't always. Anyone used to machining the iron castings knows what happens when the metal chills when being moulded. It forms white cast iron where the carbon fails to crystallise out and forms an alloy that will take the edge of a hardened steel cutting tool and can just about be machined with a carbide tipped tool. 

Ian Bottomley