Gunto Tassel Name?

[george trotter]

Another question.

I have heard the Japanese refer to the tassel on a gunto as being an isho and an icho. Maybe I didn't hear correctly as I also know the word used in writing is either tosho, tocho or even osho, ocho.

Please take a look at the pics, I include

one of my 1944 Seisui blade with brown tassel 

the August 1944 drawing showing the tassel on a Rinji Seishiki Gunto (Type 3  /  Type 0  /  Type 44  /  Type naval landing).

my own scrawl of the kanji and the Nelson kanji dictionary pronunciations.

 

Which one is it?

Thanks,

[PNSSHOGUN]

The only one I've seen used in Tocho.

[george trotter]

Hi John, I just happened to be looking at Ohmura's site and under the section naming the parts of the gunto, he calls the tassel a tosho.

 

ohmura-study.net/903.html

 

I'd still be interested in member's comments though.

Regards,

 

Edit...I see the link didn't work. Just go to links and click on Omura's site and in his index page click on " the name of each part of the Gunto". Just scroll down to the illustration.

[SteveM]

緒 is usually pronounced ”o" when used by itself or as part of a compound word. 

へその緒　heso-no-o (umbilical cord, literally "bellybutton tassel")

下緒 (sageo)

But wikipedia and other sources tell me that 刀緒 takes on the unique reading of tōcho

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8B%E7%B7%92　(midway through the page they discuss 刀緒)

https://www.touken-world.jp/tips/9969/

 

When 太刀 (tachi) is combined with 緒, it is pronounced tachio. 

 

In contrast, Ohmura goes out of his way to say that 刀緒 is pronounced tōsho, which is unusual. As he has studied guntō pretty extensively, I'd be interested to know why his reading of this is different from the majority of other sources on the internet. (It could be a regional variation of his that he is unaware of).  

[george trotter]

Hi Steve,

Yes I found it.  TOCHO for sure (sorry don't know how to put the  -  over the o).

So thanks for taking the time to provide the source . I wonder why Ohmura uses tosho?

 

I will use tocho.

 

Great work guys, thanks.

Regards,

[Kiipu]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:57 AM, george trotter said:

I will use tocho.

 

I had to translate this term today and this is what I came up with.

 

Tōcho, n. 刀緒 a sword-knot; sabre-knot.

 

Source: Creswell, H. T., J. Hiraoka 平岡閏造, and R. Namba. A Dictionary of Military Terms: English-Japanese, Japanese-English. American ed. Chicago, Ill.: University of Chicago Press, 1942. Page 1160.

[IJASWORDS]

Saw on that Ohmura site George posted was a photo of an Ikkamakj tsuka wrap. Not many around, but one of mine for interest. 

[george trotter]

Nice binding Neil.

Oviously an officer with a few extra yen could get his sword mounted to his personal taste (wouldn't be cheap!).That Ikkanmaki on a Type 94/98 is one I have never seen in hand, so very rare.

While rare on Type 94/98 mounts it is the standard for  Rinji Seishiki mounts (it was also called 'katate-maki' wasn't it?). It comes in both lacquered and unlacquered style.

Within the Rinji Seishiki types I would think that the rarest of the rare is the binding I show on the tsuka in the OP...it is a leather binding called 'gangi-maki'. I have only seen it on mine and in another two pics of Rinji Seishiki mounts...so also rare.

Interesting pic Neil, thanks for sharing...I do like 'variation' discussions.

Thanks also to Thomas for that "Tocho" source reference.

Regards,

[Dave R]

You might like this one then, from Thomas Buck's site....

[george trotter]

Hi Dave,

I know we've strayed a bit from TOCHO, but binding is interesting too.

That style and colour is interesting.

I had a sword years ago (when I was still in nappies) and it also had that deep green  binding (but 'normal' style). Fittings were standard Type 98 BUT it had silver plated guard/fittings etc and the metal saya was a deep red / maroon colour. The blade was by Ishido Teruhide.

I have seen pics of the same style of mounting only about twice in the last 3 decades...wonder if it was a special mounting style for a special group?

Interesting stuff - this is another one for Bruce haha..

Regards,

[IJASWORDS]

Hey George, a blue binding with silver blackened fittings, also unusual. 

[george trotter]

Hi Neil,

That binding looks like the dark green type.Who is the smith?

Any idea why some swords are silver plated fittings and green binding?

Nice quality. 

Regards,

[IJASWORDS]

George, besides the fact that they look good together, maybe it was an upgrade offered by a particular sword outfitter. 

The Smith is, Ichimonji Minamoto Amahide, no date no stamps. Suguha and hada, so it may have been a better quality special order. 

[Dave R]

  On 1/14/2020 at 2:08 AM, george trotter said:

Hi Dave,

I know we've strayed a bit from TOCHO, but binding is interesting too.

That style and colour is interesting.

I had a sword years ago (when I was still in nappies) and it also had that deep green  binding (but 'normal' style). Fittings were standard Type 98 BUT it had silver plated guard/fittings etc and the metal saya was a deep red / maroon colour. The blade was by Ishido Teruhide.

I have seen pics of the same style of mounting only about twice in the last 3 decades...wonder if it was a special mounting style for a special group?

Interesting stuff - this is another one for Bruce haha..

Regards,

 

 Interesting. I am currently fitting out a blade in a deep maroon metal saya, and that has me now considering a deep green/blue Ito instead of the usual brown khaki colour. 

 The blade is by  Ishihara Naotane  with a Seki stamp, and the Saya has a gold foil label at the mouth.  

[george trotter]

Amazing what turns up for sure...That scabbard looks good Dave,should turn out nice.

Hard to tell if there is any "special purpose" to the fittings like these. Maybe, as you say Neil, just special order fittings...I think that is certainly the case with my Rinji Seishiki above, but these green bindings, maroon saya and silvered fittings, although rare,  seem to stand out as a bit of a 'type" don't they.

Maybe one day we'll get a firm fact on them.

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 1/14/2020 at 11:32 AM, Dave R said:

 

 Interesting. I am currently fitting out a blade in a deep maroon metal saya, and that has me now considering a deep green/blue Ito instead of the usual brown khaki colour. 

 The blade is by  Ishihara Naotane  with a Seki stamp, and the Saya has a gold foil label at the mouth.  

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Dave,

Safe to assume no date on this Naotane?

[Dave R]

  On 3/29/2021 at 10:19 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Dave,

Safe to assume no date on this Naotane?

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 Alas , no date. I have two signed blades from WW2 smiths, and neither is dated, which is a bit disappointing. I do wonder if there is some significance to the ommission.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/30/2021 at 11:43 AM, Dave R said:

 

 Alas , no date. I have two signed blades from WW2 smiths, and neither is dated, which is a bit disappointing. I do wonder if there is some significance to the ommission.

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Thanks Dave.  I've never heard or read, from the smith's perspective, why they would date some blades and not others.  For the WWII blades, it is evident from the surveys that when the Army took control over blade production, 1942, a much higher percentage of them were dated.

[Kiipu]

  On 1/14/2020 at 11:32 AM, Dave R said:

The blade is by Ishihara Naotane with a Seki stamp, and the saya has a gold foil label at the mouth.

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Does anyone have any other examples of this silver label?  The shape is distinctly different from the Seki blue and gold labels which I am currently translating.

 

Dave R, does the label wrap all around the saya or is only on one side?

[Dave R]

  On 4/8/2021 at 12:19 AM, Kiipu said:

 

Does anyone have any other examples of this silver label?  The shape is distinctly different from the Seki blue and gold labels which I am currently translating.

 

Dave R, does the label wrap all around the saya or is only on one side?

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 All the way round.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 4/9/2021 at 2:07 PM, Dave R said:

All the way round.

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That's an interesting development!

[Kiipu]

  On 4/9/2021 at 2:07 PM, Dave R said:

 All the way round.

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Thanks Dave.  It normally requires three or four examples before one can figure these labels out.  We will just have to sit tight until further examples show up.

[lonely panet]

just to stick my nose in,  i too have never truely know the correct Japanese term either. 

on Jauce i often ses these 2 words in the titles of kyu gunto style knots  Masakeno Masatoo 

[lonely panet]

can this picture be translated and does it offer any help

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 4/10/2021 at 4:12 AM, lonely panet said:

can this picture be translated and does it offer any help

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From left to right

明治時代副官軍用刀 Meiji period Adjutant’s Gunto
尉官用 Company officer use
佐官用 Field officer use 
尉官用 Company officer use
佐官用 Field officer use
佐官用 Field officer use
將官用 General use
海軍用 Navy use
海軍用 Navy use

 

 

各種刀緒Various Sword Knot

[PNSSHOGUN]

Some nice Kyu Gunto tassels:

1: General grade

2: Field grade

3: All ranks for field use

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Boxed examples of Kyu Gunto tassels on yahoo.jp: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/t803299774

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 4/9/2021 at 9:36 PM, lonely panet said:

the correct Japanese term

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To your original question, I know it was discussed with Nick Komiya at Warrelics, but I cannot find the thread.  Maybe @Kiipu or @BANGBANGSAN can give you the English pronunciation of the Japanese term for tassel.

[lonely panet]

  On 4/10/2021 at 9:05 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Some nice Kyu Gunto tassels:

1: General grade

2: Field grade

3: All ranks for field use

 

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ohh john that Generals grade is perrrfect