Kissaki Mune Shapes.

[george trotter]

I was chatting to a chap in a militaria store today and pointing to the kissaki of a showato, he asked me what the "flared" tip was called.

Racking my poor old brain I must say I couldn't remember (maybe I never knew?). So...can members say what this part of the blade is called and any details about it.

All I know is that it depends in part on the height of the shinogi ridge...

and you you don't see it on koto?

You do see it on Shinto and shinshinto

And always? on gendaito-showato

Why is this...is it just slowly lost from repeated polishes or...?

Please see pic (I pinched it from an old NMB post).

Maybe you can jog my memory - and educate a lot of members at the same time.

Regards,

[Marius]

Here:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/shaping.html

[Ray Singer]

George, this is something that you sometimes see in Showa era blades which appear to emulating an ikubi-kissaki. The ko-shinogi will be short in length and the thickness of the blade increases greatly at the ko-shinogi-saki (saki-kasane).

 

So, to answer your friend's question this is a type of ikubi-kissaki with thick saki-kasane.

[george trotter]

Wow, quick answers guys. thank you.

Just to clarify, the sword I was talking to the guy about was not ikubi...it was normal length kissaki with "normal" widening of kissaki mune. That ikubi kissaki in the pic just happens to be one of the two swords the original poster chose to photograph.

The other thing is...what is the flared kissaki mune called?

Regards,

[Dave R]

I have seen it referred to colloquially as a Bull(s) Head kissaki. Traditionally it supposedly came in after the Mongol invasion during which a lot of Tachi had their points broken in combat. I have also heard it referred to as an armour piercing point, but I am not too sure on that one. I will be interested to see what more knowledgeable people post on this.

[ROKUJURO]

George,

this feature has to do with the shape of the SHINOGI-Ji which tapers towards the MUNE. It may not be strongly visible, but when the polisher leaves some NIKU close to the KISSAKI as we see it on KANMURI-OTOSHI blades, it looks as you have shown.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Takayama-To swords were famous for this shape during the war.

[george trotter]

George,

 

this feature has to do with the shape of the SHINOGI-Ji which tapers towards the MUNE. It may not be strongly visible, but when the polisher leaves some NIKU close to the KISSAKI as we see it on KANMURI-OTOSHI blades, it looks as you have shown.

Yes Jean, I also think that is the reason - but what is this feature called? Does it have a name?

 

As to the references in the other answers, thank you all...but I think you have mistaken my question. I was not asking about ikubi kissaki, there just happens to be one shown in the pic (sorry for the confusion caused by including that ikubi kissaki). I was asking about the general name of the wide kissaki mune  shape and periods in swordmaking where it is seen  /  seen most  /  not seen etc..

I have never had any post-1954 shinsakuto in hand but I would think that like WWII showato and gendaito, this wide kissaki mune shape would have continued for some years but maybe, as shinsaku tosho got better and better and closer to reproducing koto quality  /  shape etc, this shape will have become rarer and rarer?

regards,

[Guido]

... - but what is this feature called? Does it have a name?

 

I don't think that's there a special term for this, other than a qualifying one for the sakikasane 先重ね - if the thickness is different from "the norm", it's sakikasana atsui 先重ね厚い (thick), or sakikasane usui 先重ね薄い (thin).

[george trotter]

Hi Guido, I did see those terms when I was looking in books but could find no other term either,

I think it must be as you say...sakikasane - atsui or usui.

Thank you. 

Regards to all,

[Jacques]

I think this area is called matsuba-saki 松葉先 or mune-saki  棟先

[george trotter]

Hi Guido and Jacques,

I was looking in the "New Generation of Jap. Swordsmiths" by Tsuchiko (pp.16-17) and he addresses this question. 

 

Munesaki - The tip of the mune at the kissaki: also called matsubasaki (pine-needle tip).

 

So maybe we just say the munesaki is wide or narrow?

 

Thanks,

[george trotter]

Hi Guido and Jacques,

I was looking in the "New Generation of Jap. Swordsmiths" by Tsuchiko (pp.16-17) and he addresses this question. 

 

Munesaki - The tip of the mune at the kissaki: also called matsubasaki (pine-needle tip).

 

So maybe we just say the munesaki is wide or narrow?

 

Thanks,

I was just checking something on the RJT instructions document I translated some years ago and which Brian posted in the 'documents' section.

 

It says in Article 1 section 6 that when polishing the blade "The ko-shinoji and the matsuba-kado interception point kasane will also be polished leaving it a little thick, the dimensions of the ha section and the mune section to be at the regulation dimensions and not less".

 

So it seems the official RJT instructions name for  this part of the kissaki-mune is  matsuba-kado (meeting point (kado) of the ko-shinogi and the matsuba) and this can be left "thick" or thin.

 

I know this is a minor matter, but worth knowing.

Regards,