Minatogawa Shrine Swords

[vajo]

Maybe that helps.

 

Masakiyo was offered $9,500 (Ricecracker) in ShiraSaya

Masatome was offered $3,190  (AOI) in ShiraSaya

Masataka was offered $8,000 (Ricecracker) in civillian Koshirae

Masataka is offered $10,800 (Kyodai.nl) in ShiraSaya

Yoshichika was offered $2,700 (AOI) in Shira Saya (sword was made for minatogawa)

[Ted Tenold]

Ed, et al., 

 

The reasons for the price dispairity between Minatogawa and Yasukuni is mult-faceted.  

 

First and foremost, there are far more Yasukuni still extant because the vast majority of Minatogawa swords are at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

 

Second, the production numbers are much higher with Yasukuni swords which had not only more smiths working, but a 7 year head start over Minatogawa productions.

 

Third, Yasukuni blades were typically made available for purchase by officers while (it is thought) Minatogawa blades were directed to and issued by the Naval Academey, and Naval War Staff College to graduates.  While there are records of production and acquisitions for Yasukunito, there are scant records for Minatogawa as theirs were either destroyed in air raids or by Navy Command perhaps.

 

Fourth, on a wholesale level, the workmanship is generally quite different.  It is my opinion that Minatogawato nose ahead above Yasukunito in quality on the whole.  Minatogawa swords were made in the spirit of Ko-Bizen and can exhibit some utsuri, nie, deep ashi, and other fine elements.  I have seen one Minatogawa blade with a serious fukure, as well as one complete fake.  I have also seen a couple of the smiths work which was done outside the shrine and their work was consistent in quality, style, and appearance. 

 

Fifth, simply stated;  romance.   Navy items just have more appeal to some collectors. 

 

So at the end of the day, Occum's razor applies in that Minatogawa swords are rarer both at a matter of origins and results of attrition, with a different workmanship, (perhaps) a qualitative edge, and different appeal.  If a Yasukuni sword will command lets' say a range of $4500-$6000, then it's natural that the factors associated with Minatogawa will command an accordingly higher price.  Of course the standard caveat in this is that each swords value is beholden to state of preservation, condition, provinance, accompanying mountings, etc..  

 

Here is an oshigata of a Minatogawa sword by Masanao that I polished in 2010.  It indeed had visible bo utsuri in it.

[Ted Tenold]

  On 1/18/2019 at 7:16 AM, vajo said:

Looks like RJT swords have a better quality. The were forged and inspected at the license handbook.

 

 

Inspections and the criteria for acceptance clearly became more relaxed as the war went on.  I have seen many Gendaito that were flawed in ways that make them undesirable for collectors today, yet they passed the "inspection" and received a stamp.  Perhaps the state of polish was the reason they passed as the flaw may not have been visible yet, but also these were to my memory, all in the years of 1944 and 1945.  Raw materials, time, resources, and moral were all diminishing at an exponential rate by that time.  

 

Also, the Yasukuni records show a tiered price for their blades indicating that quality was judged and prices charged based on several levels.  Better quality = more ¥.

[vajo]

Ted this was a little sarcastic answer  to the post before. If you read my post than you see that I have the same meaning of minatogawa swords.

And yes, I have no minatogawa sword in my collection. I didn't find the right one.

[Ted Tenold]

Chris,

 

Yes, I guess I missed the tone on that one. Entschuldigung  

[vajo]

Hihi, kein Problem 

 

[Ed]

Ted,

Thanks for reiterating, and adding to my thoughts on this.

 

  Quote

As far as quality, flaws or being a masterpiece, it is the same with all sword-smiths.  Not all of their works are masterpieces, quality varies. 

 

As far as what was released with the shrines blessing may have changed towards the end when resources where scarce and weapons were needed.  That could explain why there are some examples with flaws.

 

You must remember that not everything was set in stone, rules were made to be broken.

 

To me the only feasible explanation for today's value of the Minotogawa swords is related to their rarity.

 

There were less smiths forging these than the Yasukuni-To, and many of them ended up on the ocean floor. 

 

 

[drb 1643]

Here are some pictures of my Minatogawa. It has a lacquer scabbard and canvas tsuka covering instead of same. Any comments are welcome.

Thank you all in advance.

Tom

[IJASWORDS]

Hi Tom, could you take a close up photo of the Kiku Sui Mon. Like this but clearer than my poor attempt.  

[PNSSHOGUN]

Great example Tom, especially with the rare retention cord.

[DRDave]

  On 1/28/2019 at 8:03 PM, drb 1643 said:

Here are some pictures of my Minatogawa. It has a lacquer scabbard and canvas tsuka covering instead of same. Any comments are welcome.

Thank you all in advance.

Tom

 

Tom,  the mon on the nakago looks worrisome to me. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here’s an enlarged pic:

[DRDave]

Should be 3 continuous lines, right?  They did it right on the habaki.

[drb 1643]

Yes Dave, I also noticed the kikusui was hand cut. This sword was in a collection since the mid 80’s that I know for sure. I sure hope they weren’t faking Minatogawa’s back then.

Tom

[DRDave]

It's sad, but anytime someone can take a $ item and make it into a $$ item, there are going to be fakes.  In the mid 80's, I was into Colt Single Action Army revolvers (U.S Calvary and Artillery models).  The fakes got so good that x-ray was necessary in order to know for sure that a U.S. Cavalry SAA was authentic.  I'm not qualified to pass judgement on that mon, but it does make me skeptical.  

[lambo35]

The habaki does not have 3 continuous lines. From the top, lines #3 and #5 are not attached, do not look to be continuous as they are in Neil's picture.

[IJASWORDS]

Tom, I asked for an enlargement of the kikusui mon, as Dave points out it is cut wrongly, and there if definitely alarm bells ringing for my eyes. And yes, there are forgeries out there, and have been for years.

[Bruce Pennington]

Neil's mon matches the one on Ohmura's site, as well as matching these two medals:

[vajo]

The mon from a masataka sword (ricecracker.com)

 

[vajo]

The mon from a masataka sword (ricecracker.com)

[IJASWORDS]

For potential Minatogawa owners, just ensure the Kikusui mon on the habaki and nakago match. If not would be like buying s Ferrari with a prancing horse badge on the front, and a donkey badge on the steering wheel.

[vajo]

Neil the mon can be different. I dont think it is a true sign to compare. Better it is to compare the mei? What you think?

[DRDave]

Chris, I think you're right.  Wish I had Wallinger's book.  Curious how many variations of the Kikusui mon are shown in it.

 

Edit:  Presuming the Minatogawa smiths made blades outside of the shrine, and used the same signature, then I think you have to look at both the signature and the mon.  I would expect the faker's to be looking for genuine Masa_ _ _ _  blades w/o the mon, and adding it in order to up the value.

[vajo]

I take a look later in the book but i remember that there a not many mon to see. He was more concentrating on the mei.

[vajo]

These are all the Mon from Minatogawa in Herman Wallingas Book

 

 

I hope that helps.

 

You see that every mon has its own style and it is not uniform. 

[Bruce Pennington]

Well, Tom’s looks very similar to the last one on the bottom right. Not the same, but similarities.

[DRDave]

Yep. Thanks Chris!  There's always going to be a little variation, but there's more than I expected.  I would have been skeptical of the Sadakazu, due to the extra petals.  It's just my nature   I'm liking Tom's mon now  .

 

Note to self:  Got to find a copy of Wallinger's book.

[drb 1643]

Thank you very much Chris, I feel a little better now! I guess the smiths "hand cut" some of the mons so there is a little variation?

Tom

[IJASWORDS]

Tom, take a forensic close up look at yours, it is not cut but a collection of semi circular punches that don't line up and overlap. Of course there are variations of cut mei, but not to my knowledge not made by a tool from the hardware store. That's why I wanted a close up before judgement.         

[seattle1]

Hello:

Having known Herman Wallinga well and sharing his interest in Minatogawa, and having contributed a thing or two to his now scarce publicat-

ion, I can assure all that the Kikusui mon are individually cut, however variation should not be substantial. They are wonderful "treasures" to own.

Arnold F.