Jwrussell Posted January 15, 2019 Report Posted January 15, 2019 So, took the plunge. Good or bad, this is my first. Now that it is in hand, I would appreciate the board's opinions on this piece. Very new collector, so please forgive me for any gaffes on terminology. I have two major concerns, and of course I'm curious to know if I should have others. First concern is of course authenticity, and second is what appears to be a flaw within the Shinogi-Ji, near the Mune. It can be seen in both the full view picture below and then the close-up: The seller described this as, "shows minor coarse forgings on shinogi-mune, but no openings, no blister and no other forging flaws. If this is a real problem it's just a learning experience for me as I'm not experienced enough to be ignoring any mentions of flaws. Oh well. With that said, how much of an issue is this to the sword, it's validity and value? Here are some other pictures. I'm afraid I haven't taken measurements yet, but I of course will. Your opinions on the blade are appreciated: -Jason Quote
Ray Singer Posted January 15, 2019 Report Posted January 15, 2019 Fujiwara Takada blade. Hoshu Takada ju Fujiwara___ (suriage). I personally would not have concerns about the authenticity of the mei. In absolute contrast to the seller's description though "no openings, no blister and no other forging flaws", this is a long open blister which is the result of a forging flaw. It is a fukure which has opened up and is a flaw which would deter many collectors. It also appears that something has been done to the sword to round off the geometry (amateur restoration effort likely). Where in Florida are you? We have a show coming up in Tampa just over a month from now. 1 Quote
ChrisW Posted January 15, 2019 Report Posted January 15, 2019 Welcome to the NMB! Everyone has to start somewhere. My first blade was a gunto (which I still need to show here). I don't think its particularly a special one (mine), but everyone's first blade is special to them! You live in Florida so that salty sea/tropical air is a concern, get some Choji Oil asap! Quote
IJASWORDS Posted January 15, 2019 Report Posted January 15, 2019 Welcome Jason, it boils own to what you paid for it. A relatively low price give you a low risk item to study. Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 15, 2019 Author Report Posted January 15, 2019 Tampa and I plan on attending the show. Choji oil in hand. Microdear cloth arrives tomorrow, in the meantime plain tissue was used. Glad to hear on authenticity. Not great on the other issues, but I will likely keep the blade. It at least fulfills the "own a true samurai sword" box, even if there are some flaws. I will get some further info, measurements and pictures up. If there are any specific pictures and questions please feel free to ask. 2 Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 15, 2019 Author Report Posted January 15, 2019 On 1/15/2019 at 11:43 PM, IJASWORDS said: Welcome Jason, it boils own to what you paid for it. A relatively low price give you a low risk item to study. Neil, everything is relative, right? The price was fairly low, but a bit more than I would have paid had I really been able to see the opening. I would appreciate a monetary appraisal if anyone is willing, though. Quote
DRDave Posted January 16, 2019 Report Posted January 16, 2019 Jason, Looks like the real deal; good on you for not falling for some reproduction. The softening of the lines that Ray mentions bothers me more than the fukure, but that's just me. Looks like a fairly decent habaki, too. How about a close-up of it? Quote
raynor Posted January 16, 2019 Report Posted January 16, 2019 Congratulations on your first sword and welcome. You got a great learning piece there in my opinion. I'm a fellow Floridian for now and unfortunately cant attend the Tampa show, but my (first) sword will. Speaking of salty Florida air, I'm rolling safe with Choji oil on blade while in shirasaya - overkill? Quote
SteveM Posted January 16, 2019 Report Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/15/2019 at 11:57 PM, Jwrussell said: Neil, everything is relative, right? The price was fairly low, but a bit more than I would have paid had I really been able to see the opening. I would appreciate a monetary appraisal if anyone is willing, though. $500 - $1000. Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 16, 2019 Author Report Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 3:45 AM, raynor said: Congratulations on your first sword and welcome. You got a great learning piece there in my opinion. I'm a fellow Floridian for now and unfortunately cant attend the Tampa show, but my (first) sword will. Speaking of salty Florida air, I'm rolling safe with Choji oil on blade while in shirasaya - overkill? Omar, Thank you! I am just a newbie, but I would say based on my limited knowledge that Choji Oil (THIN coat) in Shirasaya is not overkill. The other option would be no oil? If so, I wouldn't suggest that in any climate. On 1/16/2019 at 7:39 AM, SteveM said: $500 - $1000. Steve, Thank you for the input. Price paid was in the lower half of that range, so I guess I did OK. On 1/16/2019 at 12:02 AM, DRDave said: Jason, Looks like the real deal; good on you for not falling for some reproduction. The softening of the lines that Ray mentions bothers me more than the fukure, but that's just me. Looks like a fairly decent habaki, too. How about a close-up of it? Dave, I'm curious to better understand what Ray and yourself are referring to with the "softening of the lines". Also, I will get you some close-ups of the Habaki hopefully later today. I only have my cellphone for pictures, so hopefully I can get some decent ones. Quote
DRDave Posted January 16, 2019 Report Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 3:28 PM, Jwrussell said: Dave, I'm curious to better understand what Ray and yourself are referring to with the "softening of the lines". Also, I will get you some close-ups of the Habaki hopefully later today. I only have my cellphone for pictures, so hopefully I can get some decent ones. It could be just the photos, but it looks to me like the shinogi, yokote, and lines of the mune appear to have been dulled slightly; by some sort of abrasive, I'd guess. Not horribly, but they're just not as crisp as I like. Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 17, 2019 Author Report Posted January 17, 2019 Thanks, Dave. I was tied up all day but hope to put together a photo shoot tomorrow. Will see what I can do for better pics. Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 17, 2019 Author Report Posted January 17, 2019 More pictures as promised. Currently I'm in the process of trying to negotiate a return. After pulling the habaki for pictures I found another forging flaw that, at least for me, falls too far outside of the seller's description. Lesson learned. I need to pay more attention. All of the seller's pictures somehow managed to mask the actual look of these flaws. At any rate, here we go. First the Habaki. It is of two pieces. One apparently copper, the other apparently copper with a silver foil wrapping? Only way I can really describe it. Foil doesn't seem the right word. Next, more pictures of the sword. It's incredibly difficult to get a good shot with my iphone. I need practice, obviously. Quote
ChrisW Posted January 17, 2019 Report Posted January 17, 2019 That forging flaw is called a fukure (carbon blister/pocket) and unless its deep/in the hamon is not usually fatal I think. Its all dependent on what you feel makes it not worth holding onto I suppose. Biggest lesson you can take away from this is that always before buying, if you cannot hold it in your hands first, you need to see every last millimeter in detailed, non-blurry photos from tip to tang, with and without habaki. Quote
16k Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 That future looks nothing serious to me! Quote
Shugyosha Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 Hi JP, I think Ray is talking about the one (fukure) near the mune in the first series of photos. The one at the habaki moto is comparatively trivial, maybe more of a kitae ware that has followed the line of the burl in the hada but it's still a little unsightly (sorry to the OP). Best, John Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Posted January 18, 2019 Thank you all. Yes, the second fukure, would not have been reason enough for me to send the blade back or to be disturbed if it was the only issue. The one at the top of the blade was the bigger issue along with what I would call misrepresentation in the description of the blade by the seller. The further concern from a few posters about the possible alterations to the geometry also have me a tad spooked. At this point the blade is going back. It will be back up for sale immediately, I'm sure, so someone else can enjoy it. Lessons learned and I will start looking for something a little more clean. I don't know if my new pictures helped with the question of geometry at all. I really wasn't prepared for how difficult it would be to get good pictures, ha! In regards to John's note about the hada, I have to say, try as I might, I was never able to discern anything about the hada of this blade. The hamon stood out, but not the hada. I don't know if that is a function of the polish or if this blade simply didn't have much of a visible hada. Quote
Shugyosha Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 Hi Jason, It may be something to do with the steel that was used. I had a Fujiwara Takeda blade that was similarly understated in terms of hada - it was there but it took some fiddling with the light and with angles of view to get a decent look at it. On the other hand, as an example of the other side of the coin, Mino blades often have hada that contrasts strongly with a darkish jigane...but as you say type of polish or being out of polish can play a part as can overall condition - blades that are tired often have a more obvious grain. I hope you don't find yourself put off too much by this, as you are far from alone - most collectors (including myself) have been through similar experiences. Best, John Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 18, 2019 Author Report Posted January 18, 2019 John, Not put off at all! I went into this transaction knowing it would be a learning experience. I look at everything that happened and all of the information generated as added knowledge and experience, nothing more. There is so much to learn when it comes to Nihonto (which is yet ANOTHER piece of knowledge I've gained, ha!) and I've just scratched the surface. I appreciate everyone's help. If there are any more observations (I know Dave was curious about the Habaki), please don't hesitate to post. Again, I am here to soak up as much knowledge as possible. Quote
16k Posted January 18, 2019 Report Posted January 18, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 9:12 AM, Shugyosha said: Hi JP, I think Ray is talking about the one (fukure) near the mune in the first series of photos. Oh, right, that one! Yes, this one looks bad! I don't know if I'd return it because of that, but it certainly is a big, unaesthetic scar. Still, bad looking but not fatal and acceptable if the price is low. Quote
ChrisW Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Ah, yeah.. that fukure in the mune would have me spooked too because its more of a scar: one doesn't know how deep into the metal it might go. Usually fukure are not a fatal flaw, unless they are substantial or go into the hardened steel. On the other hand, you guys are right, that's a pretty aesthetically displeasing flaw which brings down the overall appearance. Its unlikely that polishing it would remove it, it'd remove more steel that I'd be comfortable with. Quote
Greg F Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 Hi Jason the last pics of the blade you provided confirm the lines are indeed rounded. If you look at some nice blades you will see that all the lines are polished sharply and very distinct. At least you didnt pay a fortune and its the real thing. Welcome to NMB. Greg Quote
SteveM Posted January 19, 2019 Report Posted January 19, 2019 All things considered, it was probably a fair price for the piece, but the experience was ruined because the dealer was a bit dishonest with the description. If you want a sword with no major flaws, and a verifiable signature you are already talking about a sword that is perhaps twice (at least) what you paid for the sword in this thread. I think if you look for a sword in the $700 range, you will struggle to find one that doesn't have some significant flaw with it. (Take a look on "for sale" section of the board - you might find something interesting). Unpapered shintō wakizashi are the unloved orphans of the sword world. Chris/Valric started an interesting thread that runs parallel to this topic. That thread is worth reading as well. Edit: see "Distortion in the Sword Market" Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Posted January 20, 2019 On 1/19/2019 at 6:50 AM, Greg F said: Hi Jason the last pics of the blade you provided confirm the lines are indeed rounded. If you look at some nice blades you will see that all the lines are polished sharply and very distinct. At least you didnt pay a fortune and its the real thing. Welcome to NMB. Greg Greg, thank you. My apologies for my thick headedness but I am still struggling a bit to understand. When you say "lines" do you mean the overall shape of the sword, or are you talking more specifically about say the lines of the shinogi or the shape of the mune? I need to spend more time studying the terms so I can communicate and understand better. 1 Quote
Greg F Posted January 20, 2019 Report Posted January 20, 2019 Lines are the shinogi, yakote, mune etc. The sharper and more defined the lines the better. This is another amazing accomplishments on top of bringing out the hada and details in the hamon that only a traditionally Japanese trained pollisher can accomplish. Greg 1 Quote
Jwrussell Posted January 20, 2019 Author Report Posted January 20, 2019 Thank you again, Greg. That is what I though, but I wanted to be sure. I appreciate everyone's patience and help! 1 Quote
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