This should be interesting...

[Leatherdog]

Here's one that should serve as a good thread starter...we'll see!

 

Before you get too excited, be advised that there is a hagire and the temper is, well, "a mystery"

 

Ubu Tachi:

Nagasa: 78.5cm (total length 102.5cm)

Sori: 1.4cm

Motokasane: 8mm

Sakikasane: 3.5mm

Motohaba: 3.5cm

Sakihaba: 1.9cm

Kissaki: 2.9cm

In shirasaya with nicely carved copper habaki

 

This piece came out of an estate sale in the NE US a couple of years ago. I bought it because I thought it was neat, hagire and all. I have been told by various "experts" that it is: Koto, shinshinto, priceless, worthless, fake, and even that it was a kabuki theatre prop. The man who guessed that it was used in theatre actually was very knowledgeable and methodical, and had good reasons for his guess (which is all he said it was...) but I think there is too much labor evident for this to be it.

 

The "hamon" is lifeless, showing no nie or nioi, no activity...may have been applied by a polisher. However, the hada is beautiful, and the Futasuji-bi is well cut (to my eye, anyway). There are a very few small ware, and of course the hagire, but other than that it seems very healthy. What is puzzling is that if it wasn't very special to someone, (ie it's a shinshinto or a theatre sword), why would it have been kept with the hagire and hamon issues and not just tossed away? Could it be that it used to be a "good" sword and it was perhaps damaged by fire - which would "kill" the hamon - and later cleaned up by a polisher and kept as an heirloom? Why not make it a (very) O-suriage wakizashi and retemper it so as to get at least some use from it?

 

I have attached a couple of pics of the mei in different light - the darker one tends to make the nakago look more deteriorated and rough than it is. Can anyone read it?

 

I'm not fishing for someone to tell me I have one of the lost Meibutsu/yakemi (though that would be nice :D ) - What I'm hoping for is just to hear everybody's opinion, so let the lead start flying!

[Leatherdog]

More pics.

[Leatherdog]

More photos...

[Leatherdog]

Why are some of my pics showing up as inline photos and others showing up as download links? Can someone (moderator!) with more computer savvy than me fix this to make it easier for everyone to view?? :?

[Leatherdog]

Last one.

[John A Stuart]

Hi, Sorry I forget your real name, Although the pics are poor showing any hamon, something is showing up. Are you saying an etched hamon-like creation? The mei looks like ?-nata, Kiminata. Need the pros for this one. The hi are crisp it seems. So, a bad polish doesn't help. More pics in better lighting might display something. The sugata looks promising. John

[Leatherdog]

Hi John,

 

I don't think it's the photos...there really is no life in the "hamon"...perhaps, if it was exposed to heat, the "outline" of the original hamon remains but all of the activity is gone...I have a re-tempered wakizashi and the area on it before the new hamon picks up looks lifeless like the tachi.

 

Don't think it's etched - perhaps stoned like when a keisho polish is applied?

[Nobody]

The Mei reads Jitsua (實阿). If it is genuine, it was made in around 1300 in Chikuzen.

However, it is said that there are many gimei swords with that name.

 

The attached picture shows a Tachi of true Jitsua of Atsuta Shrine. That is made in 1333.

Ref. http://www.atsutajingu.or.jp/event/tenji.htm

[Brian]

Why are some of my pics showing up as inline photos and others showing up as download links? Can someone (moderator!) with more computer savvy than me fix this to make it easier for everyone to view?? :?

 

If the pics are wider than 800 pixels, to prevent forced scrolling, it converts them to a link instead of displaying inline.

You can edit the posts, delete the attachments and upload resized ones if you like.

I would do it, but don't have Photoshop installed on this new pc at work yet.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Brian]

Tyler,

 

The hi look much too well cut to not have been a decent sword at some stage.

The sugata is really lovely..that classic tachi shape. Fire damaged swords tend to have a lot of masame in the ji I think. Grey? did a good article in the JSSUS newsletter recently on what to look out for.

Hmm..it is an interesting one indeed. If it is early koto (and the nakago does look to have considerable age) then you might want to have it checked out closer. Even with fatal flaws, historical swords might paper. That assumes the mei is not gimei, and as pointed out that is very likely.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

One thing makes me "trouble", the kizu on the kissaki, the metal is not broken but crushed, that could indicate that the blade has lost its hardness.

[Brian]

Another thing is the spacing of the kanji. Almost as though they were placed deliberately around the ana, and not before.

However as you said, you aren't expecting a national treasure, just an interesting piece that can be speculated about.

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

Very interesting sugata; I love it. Jitsua is a big name; the pieces in my references tend to be Juyo Bunkazia and Bijutsuhin. One tachi, in "Token Bijutsu" English volume 22, has the Kanji for Jitsua spaced widely on either side of the original mekugi-ana.

It's my understanding that the steel of early blades is softer, less brittle than that of later periods (Kamakura as opposed to Sue-Koto or later). This would explain why the kissaki has been dented, not chipped.

Jitsua worked with high shinogi, wide mune, and itame hada, dense, whitish, and with an underlying mokume. Hoso suguba (narrow) and Ko-Midare, and activity isn't expected. The color of the ha is black and there is a little bit of dense nie. (Thanks to Harry Watson's translation of Nihonto Koza.

Even with a ha-giri, if it isn't retempered and the signature is right, this is worth something and worth looking into further. It isn't a theater prop and I don't think it's Shin-shinto; it looks very much like an early tachi to me. Nice find.

Grey

[Guest reinhard]

Just some additional info (quoting Tanobe-san):

 

"Inheriting the traditional Kyushu style faithfully as it had been passed down from RYOSAI down to SAIREN by way of NYUSAI, JITSUA produced itame of large and coarse grain structure on the metal surface imparting a dark hue. His hamon is usually suguha with a weak nioi-guchi. Of the entire RYOSAI school, his kitae tended to bear the coarsest texture; especially his grain formations close to ayasugi type is peculiar in that it is a characteristic found commonly in the works of Naminohira, another major school in Kyushu."

 

This sounds O.K. so far, but what is actually irritating me is the very shallow curvature of the blade. The sword discussed by Tanobe-san is a shortened, but still signed, JuBi with nagasa 68.8cm and sori 2.3cm. Another shortened, but still signed, JuBi in the Kurokawa institute has a nagasa of 69.8cm and sori 2.6cm. The Juyo Bunkazai in the Atsuta Jingu has a nagasa of 83.7cm and a sori of 3.8cm. A feature all three blades have in common is very thin sugu ni komaru-boshi.

 

Interesting thread anyway.

 

reinhard

[Mark]

I have seen in hand a genuine (Juyo) example of this smiths work. I remebeber noting the hada was quite loose. the hamon was also somewhat "soft".

[Grey Doffin]

Retempering is a possibility that would explain the atypical curvature, the inactive hamon, and the ha-giri. How does the nakago feel: smooth and waxy or coarse and dry?

Grey

[James]

This may help:

[Tom Darling]

It appears that the mei was placed at a later date, however it's still a very nice blade. Tom

[Tom Darling]

Tyler, how long is the blade? What kind of mounts does it have? Can you furnish a pic of the hagire? Tom

[Grey Doffin]

Tom,

The 1st attached picture shows the nagasa to be 31", and the last attached picture shows the ha-gire.

Grey

[Paul Martin]

Looking at the condition of the nakago, it looks like, as someone said earlier, that it has either been in a fire or is saiha.

[Leatherdog]

The nakago does feel smooth and "waxy" - a good description I'd not thought of...

 

As for retempering, wouldn't there still be some sort of hamon visible? This "hamon" doesn't show nie, nioi, or an outline when pointed toward the light. Isn't it possible that if for whatever reason the owner determined not to retemper the blade, they might have had a polisher apply a "hamon" for the sake of appearance? Or, perhaps the blade had a keisho polish before the fire; got hot enough to "kill" the hamon but not scorch the metal...would the outline of the keisho over the original temper not still be visible?

 

Also, Reinhard's comments about the sori - if the blade has lost its temper altogether, much of the curvature the original tempering imparted would be lost, correct? As a result, the sori of this blade would have been greater before the fire (if that's what we assume happened).

[Paul Martin]

One nice thing I have noticed (photographic distortions permitting) is that if you follow the line of the nakago, from about 2 inches past the mekugi-ana the nakago kicks back. IE the curvature does not continuously follow its line. This is a typical feature on tachi that were adapted to be worn as katana.

[Grey Doffin]

If the nakago is smooth and waxy feeling then maybe the sword wasn't caught in a fire and maybe it hasn't lost its temper. Swords that have been burnt usually have a coarse, dry feeling nakago (unless they have been shortened after retempering to remove evidence of the retemper). They also can have fire scale, an uneven built up flake-like deposit. A good polisher, however, can make anything look right.

I recently owned a very early tachi that had completely lost its hamon to fire. Because it hadn't been retempered the curvature hadn't changed much if at all. This might be a possibility for your tachi.

I think it needs to be shown to someone who can tell what's up, a properly trained polisher for example. As long as there's a chance that it has its original temper, even with the ha-giri and possible gi-mei, it has some value.

Grey

[Paul Martin]

Grey's description of saiha and fire damage is correct. To add to that, the condition of the nakago usually deteriorates quite badly as in your case, becoming rather pock marked etc. Photos are hard to judge, but it looks rather flaky of the photo. The following is serious by the way, but try smelling the nakago, to see if it has been adjusted or re-patinated using chemicals etc. Also, rubb your finger on it then lick your finger to see if you get that chemically taste or tingling.

 

Here are two nakago taken form a recent article by Tanobe sensei on saiha. They are both by Yasutsuna. The one on the left is ok, the one on the right is saiha. BTW saiha or fire damage brings the same results to the nakago as the original patina is lost.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Paul, This sword ties in nicely with that conversation we had about nakago characteristics of fire damaged swords, I think. All the telltales are there, yes? John

[Leatherdog]

Paul,

 

I did one better and actually tasted the nakago. :lol:

No chemical taste or smell. It also feels smoother than it looks. Took some new pics as a couple of the ones posted earlier make the nakago look more rough than it actually is. The second set I posted initially were taken on the kitchen table under a plain white lightbulb...the ones today were outside - partly cloudy and kind of overcast.

 

Also, you are correct about the "bent" nakago...I hadn't noticed it before, but it's not the photo. Nice catch.

 

I'll also post some good pics of the hada...and for anyone who's interested, I'll throw in one of the habaki.

[Leatherdog]

More pics

[Leatherdog]

More pics

[Leatherdog]

Last one.