Nthk Or Nbthk?

[nickm]

Are there advantages to papers from 1 or the other? Wondering what you guys think.. Seems alot more troublesome to get things over to Japan than to take to nthk shinsa at sword shows..

 

Is one considered more ligitimate/accurate than the other?

[Vermithrax16]

Nickm,

I would search the NMB and you can read a lot about your very question.

[nickm]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I have done a bot of looking already and seems to be nbthk better for resale but nthk more informative.. Just was wondering if any new opinions/perspectives have arisen. And truthfully I could be better at searching..

[Gakusee]

The topic has been covered a zillion times. Invest the time to go back through the archives.

And note - not only one thread but check out several threads and search in the full version of the website as it is easier.

[Shugyosha]

Hi Nick,

 

For me, at the lower end of the market there isn't much difference between the two. I think that in either case, the shinsa panels will know infinitely more than your average Joe (me and the majority of western collectors) and so both bodies' views should be respected, but it has to be viewed in the context of the item in question and the attribution.

 

To give an example, in the context of, say, a mumei sword with an attribution to a school, say "Echizen Shimosaka" then the papers of each body are of roughly equal value. They confirm that it is a genuine Japanese sword and that it has no fatal flaws, but the additional information in the NTHK paper will normally give a time frame for manufacture which is perhaps more interesting to the beginning collector perhaps something like "Keicho goro" - around Keicho. That said, sometimes with the NBTHK papers it is possible to read between the lines and work out a rough time frame from the attribution, for example "ko Mihara", "Mihara", "sue Mihara" point to different points of time in the koto period: http://www.nihontocraft.com/Mihara_Nihonto.html

 

Where NBTHK papers can be positively unhelpful is where there are a number of generations of swordsmiths signing in a similar way or where swordsmiths in different provinces signed the same way. In this case, the papers do not always state which smith made the sword and only serve to confirm the sword and signature as genuine and, again, that it has no fatal flaws.Then you are down to relying on your own judgement or that of some helpful friends as to which generation of smith, or a smith from a particular province, actually made the sword and not all are necessarily regarded equally.

 

Sellers of swords may not (actually won't be as the NBTHK are top of the tree) be any better informed or may be unscrupulous and imply that it may be by the bigger name or names in the group of smiths in question rather than the shirt-tail smith in the group whose work is of lesser value. Again, NTHK papers may resolve this problem as they often provide a note of time frame and province. 

 

NBTHK papers are, however, the gold standard higher up the price range and to some extent it depends on the individual collector as to the point at which this becomes significant. You should have a read of Darcy Brockbank's posts on this subject on here as he sets this part in better context than I can.

 

Best,

John

[PNSSHOGUN]

Personally I am more than happy with either for simple authentication and attribution of a sword that has not previously been papered or is Mumei. Once high quality swords and big names get involved NBTHK really seems to be the final answer.

[TETSUGENDO]

NBTHK.

 

-S-

[Katsujinken]

NBTHK.

[TheGermanBastard]

the one whose attribution you like best

 

the oppinion I'd put most value towards is a Tanobe Sayagaki.

 

As far as the NTHK goes you have to distinguish between the NTHK/NPO and the NTHK Yoshikawa branch. Personally I do not go for Yoshikawa (Junior) papers and prefer the NPO.

 

Just looking at the Shinsa system I prefer the NTHK system. As others pointed out NBTHK will offer very limited information on many Hozon occasions like not stating the generation.

 

if you want to sell at the highest price  you will likely want to try to obtain the hightest NBTHK level possible.

 

if you are just keeping the blade for your own collection you may want to out your money into more interesting paper work like Dostojevski, Bukowksi or whatever gives you joy and excitement.

[Vermithrax16]

the one whose attribution you like best

 

the oppinion I'd put most value towards is a Tanobe Sayagaki.

 

As far as the NTHK goes you have to distinguish between the NTHK/NPO and the NTHK Yoshikawa branch. Personally I do not go for Yoshikawa (Junior) papers and prefer the NPO.

 

Just looking at the Shinsa system I prefer the NTHK system. As others pointed out NBTHK will offer very limited information on many Hozon occasions like not stating the generation.

 

if you want to sell at the highest price  you will likely want to try to obtain the hightest NBTHK level possible.

 

if you are just keeping the blade for your own collection you may want to out your money into more interesting paper work like Dostojevski, Bukowksi or whatever gives you joy and excitement.

I place a lot of weight in a Tanobe sayagaki. A Lot.

[TheGermanBastard]

The mere fact that he does Sayagaki will allready tell enough as to that a blade is not bad.

 

Of course Sayagaki has the downside that it can be taken advantage of by swapping Shirasayas ... that however is mostly seen with older Sayagakis.

 

Older NBTHK papers issued under Tanobe are in my oppinion more desireable than those since he left.That is again my personal oppinion.

 

I do not want to take it offtopic but Fujishiro papers are also to be held in high regard in my oppinion.

[nickm]

the one whose attribution you like best

 

the oppinion I'd put most value towards is a Tanobe Sayagaki.

 

As far as the NTHK goes you have to distinguish between the NTHK/NPO and the NTHK Yoshikawa branch. Personally I do not go for Yoshikawa (Junior) papers and prefer the NPO.

 

Just looking at the Shinsa system I prefer the NTHK system. As others pointed out NBTHK will offer very limited information on many Hozon occasions like not stating the generation.

 

if you want to sell at the highest price  you will likely want to try to obtain the hightest NBTHK level possible.

 

if you are just keeping the blade for your own collection you may want to out your money into more interesting paper work like Dostojevski, Bukowksi or whatever gives you joy and excitement.

 

Oh Crime and punishment.. The first 150 pages are the punishment then a crime not to read the rest.

[nickm]

Otherwise again I can't thank you all enough for all the help the members of this forum give to we that are trying to learn. An immeasurable asset in this field of study.

[Peter Bleed]

In Tokyo,the obvious answer is NBTHK,but lots of us ain't in Tokyo, so the real question is

which flavor of NTHK do we prefer, the Tampa flavor of the Chicago (NPO) flavor?

IMHO, I think that for somebody seeking an opinion about a sword they have thought about and inspected, EITHER would be worth the cost

But I would consider neither a "guarantee".

Peter

[Jean]

Remember that Kanteisho are only written opinion.

[TheGermanBastard]

The US NTHK-NPO Shinsa was 275.00 last year per issued Kanteisho plus USD 100.00 handling service if sent in (plus shipping and return shipping). In my oppinion this only makes sense if you can personally bring in your sword. Otherwise it is not significant cheaper than sending it to Japan for NBTHK Hozon which I would do then. if you attend the show in person then it is an option. I remeber that some years ago it was USD 200.00.

 

You can use Paul Martin as an agent

 

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/services/nbthkshinsa-fees.html

 

Getting Hozon will cost you about 65.000 Yen if a NBTHK memeber plus shipping to Japan. Unless a blade is of significant importance it makes no sense economically speaking.

[Guido]

Getting Hozon will cost you about 650.000 Yen if a NBTHK memeber plus shipping to Japan.

 

6,000 Yen for licensing and 25,000 Yen shinsa fees = 31,000 Yen (US$ 286): I didn't know that Paul charges a 619,000 Yen (US$ 5,700) handling fee .... 

[Gakusee]

Typo, Guido and Luis. Paul’s fees are very reasonable

[TheGermanBastard]

Yes, Pauls fess are very reasonable ....

 

@ Guido: Some people play smart others try the other way round 

[Rivkin]

... And the topic lives and lives.

 

I think one of big caveats in answering this question is whether we are buying or selling.

 

If you are selling in Japan, some will refuse to work with NTHK papers. But you can always put it through someone to auction or place it in a store that works with them, and until 10K USD it will sell. Probably with small penalty compared to modern NBTHK papers. Internationally, the penalty will be even smaller. So unless we deal with something expensive it is whatever papers are the cheapest or most likely to yield the attribution you want (which is largely a shamanic matter). If attribution is slam dank (for example, it is signed by average multi-generation smith with no lethal flows) - whatever is cheapest. The whole discussion about who is older, who is more popular, and who includes active dealers as shinsa judges is interesting but not strikingly important here.

 

If we are buying than I see no way to make a definitive advice here. How much risk are you willing to take? What is your goal? Every collector develops over time a very personal system of "tells" which determine whether it is a buy or not.

I would not touch anything sayagakied by Honami Koson with no papers. In my experience it all comes out as Shinto imitation.

There are certain books, if it is published in one them I would almost certainly bid on it. No papers - good, less money to waste/.

I am open to second-guess anything papered within past 2 decades to Uda by NBTHK since in my opinion it can be lazy-default judgement on non-canonical but possibly still high quality Soshu piece.

Etc.

But then I am not much of a collector. There are people who look at all of this as wasting time and money and playing lottery rather than buying good blades.

They tend to collect tokujus. I strongly feel If one can follow this example, he will end up with mostly important blades.

 

Kirill R.

[raynor]

Personally I do not go for Yoshikawa (Junior) papers and prefer the NPO.

 

Is not this the guy who takes care of the imperial collection? Sounds like he would be someones who's judgement should be solid.

[Rivkin]

Is not this the guy who takes care of the imperial collection? Sounds like he would be someones who's judgement should be solid.

In most countries being a curator of Shosoin alone would absolutely forbid one from offering paid appraisals, save possible individual exceptions like being compensated for expert participation in a TV program.

 

Kirill R.

[raynor]

That does make sense but does the (secret?) Shosoin collections include the imperial swords? Either way to be in care of such works he has to have some credibility, regardless of any internet rumors I think. I would be comfortable knowing someone like that was on the Shinsa bench.

 

Am I wrong in assuming the percieved nbthk vs nthk "rivalry" is something created mainly by (western) collectors online, in light of buying and selling swords?