Is It Really That Important To Have A Blade Papered These Days?

[barnejp]

Hi All.

Is it really that important to have a blade papered these days?

Thank you, Greg

[barnejp]

Back in the day...sure...of course..but now with the newbies??

[Doug]

Hi Greg, I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking, I would think that papers would actually be reassuring to new collectors. I (and I’m sure others on this board)have at least a few blades that I haven’t bothered to paper because I am confident by the mei and workmanship that they are what they say they are and I have no plan to sell them soon. If I was selling them I would consider papering to increase the range of buyers. I think price is also a factor. No matter how good a blade looked if it was 8-10K and upward I would feel better with an NBTHK/NTHK imprimatur. Just my thoughts, not sure if that addresses your question, the paper issue has been well hashed and I’m sure opinons will vary.

 

Doug

[Guido]

Doug, I think Greg is reacting to a post in another thread where our resident gossip and rumor-spreader was at work again: a sad case of trying to appear to be in the know by constantly making unsubstantiated, attention seeking claims. Not contributing anything of substance, but always being there to grace us with his “insider knowledge” of the workings of the Japanese sword market. When called out, he keeps quite until he finds another topic he can barge in.

[Jean]

Answer: Yes

[nickm]

Coming from a person who is relatively new to collecting but trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can papers I think are very important with larger purchases. I will spend a 1000 or 2 on a gamble without papers but no way of spending 5000 more unless it's with papers. My theory being if the sword is good enough to charge that much money for and doesn't have papers then it was submitted and did not attain the level that the seller is potentially claiming.. Along the same lines if it is in Polish and expensive with a mei and no papers i assume submitted and found gimei

[Rivkin]

Greg, the answer will differ from person to person. Two people walk into the same sword show come out with opposite experiences. Turns out they looked at different price levels, and then extrapolated differently what they saw.

 

My very personal take is that in American segment when you sell, there is just no price level at which you loose by papering.

You will have 1200$ tanto with papers sitting next to a somewhat better 900$ one - and the first one will likely sell faster.

Even if its later generation of an average line, so there is no particular revelation in paper's context.

One of the reasons is that the guy who buys the 900$ one will start running around the room asking people "how does it look?" and then someone will tell him there is hagire.

Which papers are the best, which ones are to be believed - is a different can of worms. Hozon has distinction of currently being accepted at face value by all dealers. But any type of papers help, and in the US until you reach 10k and above the difference between papers' impact is small.

 

There are obviously collecting areas where you will see people pulling out regularly 40k without any papers.

But Nihonto world is quite not the same as any other weapon collectible though.

A personal speculation - first and foremost it has about 10 times more participants than all other edged-antiques-based commercial markets combined.

Second - say in Medieval European swords you have Academics, Curators and Dealers, and they all look at the subject somewhat differently. When these communities don't like each other that much, you sort of have competing points of view checking against each other.

Nihonto was always 100% dealer dominated, with academic portion basically anemic, typically just dealers presenting themselves differently. Markus Sesko can be a significant exception and that carries a lot of potential. 

 

Good news with that you don't have bearded academians who live by mixing wikipedia with pretty pictures in exhibition catalogues but can't recognize an obvious fake. The level of "practical professionalism" in the community is quite high.

Bad news no one gives the slightest damn about why Hojo's gifts where inscribed as such only in the 16th century, or what happened to the Tenno's collection in the 14th century, or how a knife maker in Kamakura can be descendant of Masamune unless the latter's son was Hiromitsu and then you might have a direct lineage through Tsunahiro.

Add to this the fact that nihonto is not the passtime of upper classes by a long shot, and youget a range of behaviors. Cult-like "nihonto is the absolute steel", a battalion of titles "director and founder of ...", and well, why study it when you can paper it and then value it based on paper alone.

 

Kirill R.

[Guest Rayhan]

[Ooitame]

That poor horse... looks hog tied too.

[barnejp]

Do the current NBTHK Members have the proper resources to determine if a blade is Nambokucho or not?

[Ray Singer]

Not sure if I understand the question. It is typically clear from the attribution whether the sword is Nambokucho or later. That is not always the case for smiths who span from nambokucho into Oei, but sometimes there is a notation (for example, Nobukuni Late Nambokucho). This is not something related to being an NBTHK member, but rather is specific to the kanteisho itself.

[Vermithrax16]

To further beat the dead horse...

 

I will not buy anything sword wise without papers. Menuki, tsuba, etc I rely on help from good friends or my own research. 

 

To Greg's question always see if there is a Ko, none, or Sue designation on papers, that will tell you the era.

[Blazeaglory]

Doug, I think Greg is reacting to a post in another thread where our resident gossip and rumor-spreader was at work again: a sad case of trying to appear to be in the know by constantly making unsubstantiated, attention seeking claims. Not contributing anything of substance, but always being there to grace us with his “insider knowledge” of the workings of the Japanese sword market. When called out, he keeps quite until he finds another topic he can barge in.

 

 

Hey what did I do now?

 

But to be honest, if the price is under a certain number (for me its $1000) and the item looks good and is legit, for me, lack of paper doesn't matter. But this is just MY opinion.

 

Now if its supposedly a famous smith or early era and the asking price is quite a bit of $$$, I would definitely want papers.

 

I guess it really depends on what you want. Of course a blade with paper is better because, if paper is legit, then that means a group of experts have verified the blade, giving a certain "stamp of authenticity" in an otherwise foggy area. The information you get from Shinsa is far more valuable than anything, I think. In other words, you pay to know the history of an otherwise unknown (or speculated) blade.

 

Lastly, some seem to want more money for blades with paper, or use that as their only motive. For me that doesnt really matter. I mean it helps but if I have sword I like, then I probably wont want to sell it unless there is an emergency. I prefer the historic and blade specific info over $$$ any day

 

Just my .02 cents

[Jussi Ekholm]

There is a big difference between NBTHK members and NBTHK officials. Anyone can be a member of NBTHK, all you need to do is join in. Just being a member does not instantly give you any secret knowledge. I do not know who are the current shinsa panel of NBTHK but that they have been chosen for the task by the organization is enough qualification in my mind. I am not a member of NTHK but I'd think they same about both NTHK branches. Just being a member of the organization is not a proof of anything but I think their shinsa panels are skilled.

 

I think JASMK (https://jasmk.jp/) might be unknown to many but they have bit more electronical approach. Their attribution has a QR code. I have never seen their certificates in person so I cannot comment much about them. I think the idea is cool but they are still really minor in bigger picture.

 

Any kind of authentication will bring a bit of security for the buyer, how much... well it depends on many things. The higher the level of authentication is the more research has been done to the item and the higher quality item it is in general. NBTHK publishes the Jūyō and Tokubetsu Jūyō swords and as far as I know NTHK publishes Yūshū swords (I don't know which branch has the books). These swords are high quality swords researched by the organizations. The importance of having the sword papered depends on the quality of the item. In my opinion it really does not chance too much for low end items. However on some rare occasions there can be really top end swords with just Hozon papers.

 

In general market modern NBTHK papers are the golden standard, NTHK shares a minor share and JASMK (and similar) papers are miniscule in number. (granted I mostly only follow sites of good Japanese dealers so my view might be bit skewed)

 

Kirill I don't think I agree with some of your statements. I think Japan included the number might be 10x but here in Europe Japanese swords are much less collected than military swords. Here in Finland Japanese swords are pretty much unheard of and most sword collectors focus on European & Russian military swords. I wouldn't say the Japanese sword collecting society is anemic, I'd dare to say the opposite. European NBTHK and sub-branches have arranged lots of good stuff over the years I've been a member (and lot before that too). Regional groups have amazing events organized, like in UK Token Society etc., in Italy I.N.T.K and there are strong groups in France, Poland, Czech and all over Europe. I hope you get a chance to visit some of the meetings and they might change your view.

[Gakusee]

Jussi - as usual a thorough and enjoyable contribution from you. I always read your posts with great satisfaction.

 

May I just clarify something about JASMK. This is not really a museum (well sort of it might be construed like that but not in the traditional sense). This set-up is a clever way for Saito san, whom I have met and even had drinks with, to promote his dealer business. So, Saito san has a sword business, he has his own collection (I think c. 2000 swords) and some of it is displayed in a show room / museum setting. The certification side of things - well, another clever way to know what swords are where (owned by which collectors), and also an additional revenue stream to charge existing or prospective customers.

So, in this sense, his certificates are dealer attributions, which admittedly look nice and different, but that needs to be borne in mind.

 

Dwain - I do not think Guido’s comment was aimed at you.

[Blazeaglory]

Jussi - as usual a thorough and enjoyable contribution from you. I always read your posts with great satisfaction.

 

May I just clarify something about JASMK. This is not really a museum (well sort of it might be construed like that but not in the traditional sense). This set-up is a clever way for Saito san, whom I have met and even had drinks with, to promote his dealer business. So, Saito san has a sword business, he has his own collection (I think c. 2000 swords) and some of it is displayed in a show room / museum setting. The certification side of things - well, another clever way to know what swords are where (owned by which collectors), and also an additional revenue stream to charge existing or prospective customers.

So, in this sense, his certificates are dealer attributions, which admittedly look nice and different, but that needs to be borne in mind.

 

Dwain - I do not think Guido’s comment was aimed at you.

 

 

Oh I know, its kinda an inside joke I guess haha