Help/advice With A Potential Purchase

[nickm]

So the story goes I have the opportunity to purchase this. I more than understand that the essentially one useful picture may not be of any help for anyone's identification/information but all the same as there are many smarter people than me on here so I thought I would give it a go. The story goes it was given to the Secretary of State at the end of World War II then the secretary gave it to a retired general that lives in my area from whom I intend to purchase. I apologize for not being able to give more pictures along with the request but it was all that was able and he is also unwilling to damage it "" when I asked him to remove the handle and told him I would do so for him. As it stands he doesn't really want to sell it but over the course of the last 6 months I have talked him into it. He is asking $2000

[Brian]

It's a gamble, as you well know. Without knowing what the tang says or looks like, you are buying a decent car without looking at the engine.
However, what we can see...looks good. I like the fittings. Saya has some very nice decoration. The tsukamaki could be carved from solid (very nice and unusual) or could be baleen (even nicer, even if needing repair)
Blade looks good, assuming no major flaws. Personally, I am not sure what I would do. I would try and get him down to $1500. If not, and you do pay $2K, you wouldn't stand to lose a huge amount as a package, but a lot depends on what you can't see.
I say go for it...but then it isn't my money

[Rivkin]

The koshirae looks a good quality early Meiji or the very end of Edo work.

There is damage, but that could be fixed.

The blade appears to be in good condition, probably Shinto or later. Can't be said more without better pictures.

An attractive package overall.

"Was given" probably refers to a private citizen's gift. It is not state's level.

 

Kirill R.

[nickm]

Thanks very much for the replies. Any other opinions would be appreciated but as I am a gambling man I believe I'm going to go for it. I look forward to posting more pictures later this week

[Alex A]

Horimono looks a little worn, possibly Koto?, dunno.

 

Cant see any way of repairing the ito, which is a shame, as new ito on an antique koshirae does not have the same appeal. New ito $150.

 

You might want polish, not sure what that costs your end, not cheap

 

Usually with old saya and new polish, would recommend shirasaya made to store the blade, $300 upwards.

 

If hes asking $2000, im guessing hes had it valued. If he doesn't want to sell, maybe hes asking an high price?

 

I would aim low or not bother. At that price there is just too much about, in perfect polish and without secrets.

 

Good luck.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

I second the opinion already given.

A nice package.

The koshirae, the blade and the polish looks to be in decent condition

Seems there is a gunome hamon.

[b.hennick]

Is there a kozuka to go with the Kogai? If there is an empty slot you will have a difficult time replacing the missing piece. The handle wrap might be baleen. If so it will be very difficult to replace. I would not be interested if the kozuka is missing and I can't see the tang.

[Brian]

Barry...I think it may be baleen. And that brings up the question....it was a rare and expensive material back then. Have we ever seen a really poor or junk blade that was mounted with baleen? I know there are no rules, but it does suggest a good blade. Or at least enough to make someone take interest.

[Ron STL]

Looks interesting, for sure. If you get it, be sure to preserve the old sageo with it. If the provenance is true, it is unlikely the nakago has been messed with. Looking forward along with the everyone else to see the bare blade, with or without a mei. Ron STL

[Ray Singer]

I personally would be comfortable purchasing for $2,000. It does appear to be baleen and I would preserve as-is (rather than having new tsukamaki done) if you're able to acquire it.

[Rivkin]

Could easily be something like Mino Kanefusa sue koto. In general later tanto until bakumatsu-early showa I feel are seldom horribly bad. 

 

Kirill R.

[Peter Bleed]

Looks like a nice toppei tanto. Your babies will not starve at 2K.

Peter

[Bazza]

I support $2k as well, with or without a kozuka.  To me the blade shape looks a little "awkward" and with the gunome hamon I'm tipping Shinshinto.  The toppei koshirae is a nice touch, I think.  I'm wondering if the ito will turn out to be lacquered paper (I have one such tsuka) as the broken strand looks too thick to be baleen.  The saya lacquer looks very nice and the ribbed top to the saya is not easy to do and to me it "looks good".  Looking forward to further revelations.

 

BaZZa.

[Alex A]

 I would preserve as-is (rather than having new tsukamaki done) if you're able to acquire it.

 

Whilst being slightly drunk lol, my feelings over the last few years regarding worn ito, totally should be preserving Ito, if possible.

 

I like nothing better than antique koshirea, even if mediocre,

 

Should be left alone.

 

Happy new year!

[nickm]

I very much appreciate everyone's input. The more I hear the more excited I get for Wednesday morning. Hopefully will have pictures up on Wednesday afternoon in more detailed fashion. I definitely agree regardless of what the ito is made of with preserving it as I think it looks way better than what would be the new version. Does anyone know who I should contact once I have the blade to pursue professional preservation?

[Alex A]

Herewith where the problem lies, whilst me, you and Ray agree to preserve the original tsuka, 

 

For some, the impulse to re-new is far to great.

 

Wish folk would leave antique tsuka alone, and look to preserve.

 

Seems folk want pretty, which often antique isn't the case

 

Best

[Guido]

For some, the impulse to re-new is far to great.

 

Wish folk would leave antique tsuka alone, and look to preserve.

 

Seems folk want pretty, which often antique isn't the case

 

Well, where do you draw the line? How about having a sword polished - another case of preservation vs. restoration?

 

I hope my questions were provocative enough to snap you out of your slightly intoxicated state ... 

[Alex A]

Well, where do you draw the line? How about having a sword polished - another case of preservation vs. restoration?

 

I hope my questions were provocative enough to snap you out of your slightly intoxicated state ...

Morning Guido, happy new year!

 

With blades, you might see one more polish, last chance saloon.

 

With koshirae, when its gone, its gone.

 

I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Beholder may want to bare that in mind, when a future sale occurs.

 

Suppose if done well, helps

 

Was actually looking at a papered Daisho the other day. that was done nice, papered though.

 

Where ti draw the line ?, upto the owner.

 

With antiques, anything original adds to provenance/authenticity. New tsuka often get me wondering if just a recent assembly

 

All relative to owner

Best

[Brian]

The answer to this question is very easy...
Shirasaya, and the original mounts kept as it with a tsunagi. Best of both worlds.

Btw, Nick...
Just bear in mind that this could easily be a flawed or gimei or poor or average blade. Just know that this is a risk, and no matter what we all say here, the risk is yours. We will all be very happy if it's a very nice blade, but if it turns out to be poor, we will be sad with you, but no fundraiser to compensate
I know this is obvious, but wanted to make sure you are reminded. Make sure those funds are semi disposable income.

[nickm]

I appreciate the advice brian. I am going into it with a gambling mentality so hoping for the best but prepared for the worst. As always thanks to everyone for the advice/thoughts. Love this forum!!!

[nickm]

I kinda love the opportunity to get something that hasnt seen the market and has been taken care of... Seems that is becoming increasingly rare.. Heres hoping it is worth the money! But i think it looks pretty awesome either way I guess

[vajo]

Nick if you buy it don't have any story about the provenance in mind. Forget the story if you decide to buy. The story is not important.

[nickm]

sure. only thought for me personally is the story adds a little to the gamble of it not being a junk blade. Going to be what it is for sure. I have definitely lost gambling before..

[Surfson]

This is an interesting thread.  

If I were you, my decision about whether to buy the blade would be based on the quality of the fittings and blade in hand.  I can't tell how good they are from these photos, so based only on these pictures, I am more cautious than the others.  I also can't tell the state of polish of the blade.  if the fittings are just so so, they might only be worth $600-800 bucks or so by themselves.  

 

If the blade needs a polish and is a mumei late blade, perhaps shortened, then the blade might only be worth a few hundred bucks as it sits.  On the other hand, if it is gorgeous, it could be more encouraging.  I just can't tell from the photos.  

 

I don't like to get into the lottery mentality that these situations often pose.  If you go look at people selling coin lots or swords on ebay, many hold back information and claim ignorance of the item being sold.  For instance "unsearched" coins hold out the promise that there will be some very valuable rare coins in the mason jar full of coins that has been sitting in grandpa's attic for the last 50 years.  For me, when I start hearing stories about attaches, generals, emperors and important gifting events, my antennae always go up.  But that is just me.

 

Back to the sword at hand and based on the photos only, I think that $1500 could be a stretch and you might not recoup your investment when the time comes to move it along.  On the other hand, if the fittings are gorgeous in hand, the blade has nice hada, hamon and polish, then it might be that you are ok even at the asking price (although without seeing the tang, if I loved the fittings and the blade was attractive, I would try to get it for under $1500).  I see some curve, and certainly don't see any uchizori in the blade, and I would agree with those that put it in shinto or shinshinto periods (or possibly late koto, muromachi).  

 

Just my two bits on it.  If you ask him for an inspection period, you might be able to send some better photos, even if he still won't let you take the handle off, we might be able to help you more.   Good luck with it and keep us posted!

[nickm]

Totally understand and thank you for putting the downside in monetary terms. As it stands I have only been able to put eyes on it for about 5 minutes over the last 6 months.. As far as the provenance part, the fellow I am talking into the sale is a retired general and was last stationed at the US army war college in Carlisle pa... I live in this area and it is inundated with high end military personnel. Of course I can't know if it was actually given to him from the Secretary of State but will say that he is a rather impressive old fellow and I don't know if I would think he would lie about that.. Especially as when he was telling me the story it wasn't with the notion of selling it. As far as the inspection period, I am kind of afraid that if I don't buy it immediately he is going to change his mind as again I have been pestering him to sell it to for some time now.

 

Totally get this is a gamble that I very well may lose but am in a position to have a little bit to gamble with And I figure this is better than going to the casino because at least I will have a nice souvenir if it doesn't work out...

 

Thank you again for the information Robert. I look forward to getting some photos up either way.

[Surfson]

If he is a general without doubt, then at least you know it was owned/brought back by a general!  That does make the story stronger.  Often these stories come second hand and are worth nothing, but in this case it is first hand.  How old is this guy? Ask him when he received the gift, that could be informative.  Was he in Japan at the end of the war?  If he was there in the late fifties or sixties, then the prospects are less exciting, but if he is a real old timer (in his late 90s) and was a ranking officer during or at the end of the war, then the prospects may be more encouraging.   For this to be the case, he would have had to be at least in his mid to late twenties at the end of the war, making him nearly 100 years old or older now.....

 

You seem to have collected and hopefully can judge the quality of the blade and fittings well.  If it is gorgeous, buy it!  The saya looks like it has a lot of inlay and other work, but again, the level of quality is something I can't discern.  The best I can say is use your judgement when you inspect it closely and don't get swept up into thinking that it is going to be signed Sa with a shoshin mei when you take off the handle.  Nine times out of ten, the "reveal" is disappointing, so gamble accordingly.   Cheers, Bob

[b.hennick]

Does this piece have a matching kozuka?

[nickm]

I dont think so. If memory serves I dont think there is a slot for it on the koshirae. Wont be sure till i put eyes on it tomorrow though

[nickm]

I was able to get ahold of the seller's son who said he believes there is no slot on the other side. He said he thought there was some kind of loop or something Built-in to attach it to a belt or uniform..Kind of a nuisance getting in contact as the seller doesn't play with cellphones much and doesn't text at all. Again will know for certain and have more detailed pictures up tomorrow

[b.hennick]

If there is only one side implement, it usually is a kozuka and not a kogai.