Magoroku Kanemoto

[James]

Could this one be by the Nidai? I've found a few of his swords on the net and the mei's seem to be a close match. Also the style of sanbonsugi seem to be very similar.

I can't get any additional photos at the moment.

 

[Mike]

Hi James, this is my opinion only, based on small research I made on mino Kanemoto as well as on Nihonto Koza vol. 3. I don't think that your sword is by second kanemoto, the boshi don't look correct to Magoroku (should be midarekomi with a hint of jizo), also the hamon looks a bit to organize comparing Magoroku, the mei is difficult to see, though I don't think it fits exactly. I think the right side of the moto kanji is a bit shorter and the kane kanji don't look the same as Magoroku. I hope I am wrong Mike

[James]

Have a look at these links of Magaroku and let me know what you think:

http://www.d8.dion.ne.jp/~y.noda/KANEMOTO.html

http://www.users.on.net/~coxm/oshigata% ... %20k8.html

http://www.users.on.net/~coxm/oshigata% ... %20k9.html

[Jean]

James,

 

I won't say anything about hamon because of poor pictures provided.

 

Mei : kanji don't match with examples provided

 

Nakago : Were it not for the fuzzy overall picture of the blade and koshirae, I would have sworn that the makago had a soshu flavour from the other pictures.

 

Nakago : Compare your examples to the pictures, the one in the picture is very curved on the ha side. Mekugi ana are not aligned in the same manner as in your example

[Mike]

James, the links you provided only proves what Jean wrote as well as what I wrote in my previous reply, especially about the mei. Mike

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

James,

 

 

Please, forgive my frankness, but always asking for help will not make you strides, i think it's time for you to learn to make your own opinion.

 

An oshigata from Magoroku Kanemoto.

 

[James]

Hi Jacques

 

Although your comment is somewhat justified, just know that I didn't just run straight to the board when I saw the sword.

I researched the different generations, and formed the opinion that it seemed to be the Nidai.

Then I came here to see if other's would agree. I was wrong, and now have learnt why I was wrong.

But thanks for expressing your concern and for the oshigata.

[Guest reinhard]

Then I came here to see if other's would agree. I was wrong, and now have learnt why I was wrong.

 

Don't be too sure about that. This board is no shinsa and the pics/infos are just not good enough to make a reliable statement. The usual suspects on the board are quite...hmm...daring, to evaluate a blade on the basis of this kind of infos. - Don't give in too early. Things aren't that easy.

 

reinhard

[James]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to let this one die just yet.

 

I've just acquired a Toko Taikan and looked up the Nidai there (page 136).

Have a look at the following comparison. It looks pretty good to me, especially the first example.

 

[Brian]

James,

 

If there is any doubt, by all means never give up. There are definitely similarities. It is always easier to find differences, and there are some. At this point, it would be impossible to come to a conclusion..and the work should be used for further input. This means maybe having it polished or sending it for a window.

However you guys do have a shinsa coming up there sometime. This one might be worth using a slot if you have one.

Everyone here expresses their opinion on gimei knowing and expecting that the owner should take note of the limitations of the internet and use the info to get more feedback in hand.

 

Brian

[Stephen]

This board is no shinsa

 

truer words have not been spoken,

 

here's a scan from the Yoran, looks close to me. id have the shinsa team look at it and if they say good, that'd be great, if bad get another opinion as they are known for making a few head shakers.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Here is a nidai Kanemoto (tokuho) mei, you can see there is a big difference with James'.

 

 

[Leatherdog]

How big of a clue is a Jizo boshi on a sword signed "Kanemoto"?

 

from http://www.samuraisword.com:

 

"THE WORK OF "MAGOROKU KANEMOTO" IS VERY BEAUTIFUL, DISTINCT, AND EASILY DISCERNIBLE! ...

 

THE BLADE CHARACTERISTICS ARE UNIQUE. THE BOSHI (THE POINTS HEAT TREATING) IS KNOWN AS "THE KANEMOTO BOSHI", IT IS MAINLY MIDARE KOMI(IRREGULAR) BEGINNING AT THE "YOKOTE" (VERTICAL RIDGE LINE) THERE WILL BE TWO SMALL BEADS OF GONOME (ROUNDED HILLS), IT THEN TRANSFORMS INTO A "JIZO HEAD" ( SHAPE OF THE HEAD OF THE DEITY JIZO )."

 

Any thoughts on how conclusive this is? Nagayama's book seems to support this by stating that 2nd Generation Kanemoto's boshi was as such, but following generations were not.

 

Thoughts?

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

How big of a clue is a Jizo boshi on a sword signed "Kanemoto"?

 

from http://www.samuraisword.com:

 

"THE WORK OF "MAGOROKU KANEMOTO" IS VERY BEAUTIFUL, DISTINCT, AND EASILY DISCERNIBLE! ...

 

THE BLADE CHARACTERISTICS ARE UNIQUE. THE BOSHI (THE POINTS HEAT TREATING) IS KNOWN AS "THE KANEMOTO BOSHI", IT IS MAINLY MIDARE KOMI(IRREGULAR) BEGINNING AT THE "YOKOTE" (VERTICAL RIDGE LINE) THERE WILL BE TWO SMALL BEADS OF GONOME (ROUNDED HILLS), IT THEN TRANSFORMS INTO A "JIZO HEAD" ( SHAPE OF THE HEAD OF THE DEITY JIZO )."

 

Any thoughts on how conclusive this is? Nagayama's book seems to support this by stating that 2nd Generation Kanemoto's boshi was as such, but following generations were not.

 

Thoughts?

 

True, but not always, as these oshigatas show; Nagayama's book gives only general points.

 

[Leatherdog]

More photos

[Leatherdog]

More pics.

[Jean]

Interesting pictures as Magoroku Kanemoto is reknown for having a sanbonsugi not well formed /irregular. It seems it is not the case in this wakizashi

[Leatherdog]

Jean,

 

What are your thoughts on the mei based on the additional photos? Are the kanji still suspect?

[Leatherdog]

Also, what are we looking for in terms of yasuri-mei and hada?

 

Here are a few more photos...sorry they're not higher quality. If anyone has requests for particular views that might help in making an educated guess as to which kanemoto (if not Magaroku, then which generation...?) let me know and I'll try to get them.

[Yoshii]

Hello,

 

If i'm not mistaking the hamon to me looks very regular.

This sanbonsugi hamon was according to the Japanese experts invented by Magoroku Kanemoto (nidai)

But his hamon is not as regular as on this particular sword.

So in my humbl opinion this sword is made by one of the later generation Kanemoto

 

Greetings jos

[Ed Harbulak]

Hawley's lists some 20 Mino based smiths using the name Kanemoto from Koto through Shito times. Since the sanbonsuji hamon is so regular on this blade, if it's by Kanemoto at all it has to be one of the much later smiths using that name. Unfortunately many of those later smiths are not well documented, so finding examples of genuine mei from the later generations may be rather difficult. Then too, the blade could have been made by any number of Mino smiths working in the style of Kanemoto and either adding a gimei signature or leaving the blade mumei with some later sword dealer "improving" the blade by adding a false signature.

Ed Harbulak

[Leatherdog]

Thanks to everyone for the input. When I purchased this sword, I bought it for the fact that it was a reasonably priced, signed, and healthy wakizashi...I've not yet bought an unpapered blade based on the mei.

 

That said, I still think this one has a shot at being the nidai...the boshi is spot-on for the one Kanemoto is most well known for, the hada seems right, the mei is at least close (any additional comment being welcome) and the hamon is also at least close. It is my understanding that Magoroku's sanbon-sugi evolved during his career, but is generally irregular, and the "points" of the hamon are generally more rounded than later generations. I would expect to see, on a late generation kanemoto sanbon-sugi, a "regular 'two short and one tall' hamon"...this one is pretty well controlled, but does seem to fit the bill as irregular in that, in the large part of the hamon, there doesn't seem to be a strict adherence to this pattern. I'll see if I can take another pic or two to show some of the more "irregular" areas of the hamon and post them tonight...

 

Thanks again for all of the input, and I hope for more.

 

In the end, as is so often stated here, "Only shinsa will decide".

[Darcy]

I don't think the hamon rules out the nidai Kanemoto. The later generation Kanemoto smiths when they made regular sanbonsugi, it was like it was coming out of a machine, like the notches on a ginsu knife.

 

Nidai Kanemoto did make them more irregular than this at times so that you have to almost search to find sanbonsugi.

 

So I think that overall it could be second or third generation just looking at the hamon. I haven't checked the mei.

[Guest reinhard]

The name "KANEMOTO" was (and still is) an extremely popular brand. The blades of Seki no Magoroku were recognized almost instantly for their extreme sharpness and durability. The fame of his swords was even increased by Yamada Asaemon Yoshitoshi, when being rated "saijo o-wazamono" in the book "Kaiho Kenjaku" in 1815. Countless blades were made between late Muromachi-period and Showa era with prestigious sanbonsugi hamon, in Seki and beyond. The school of Darani KATSUKUNI in Kaga, f.e., produced swords in his style as well. (They have this "machine made"-looking pattern Darcy is talking of). I've seen at least three ShowaTo with sanbonsugi hamon signed KANEMOTO.

 

What I'm saying is: When it comes to blades with a sanbonsugi hamon signed "KANEMOTO", one better checks ALL features of the blade (not only mei and hamon) three times before coming to a judgement.

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

Thanks to everyone for the input. When I purchased this sword, I bought it for the fact that it was a reasonably priced, signed, and healthy wakizashi...I've not yet bought an unpapered blade based on the mei.

 

That said, I still think this one has a shot at being the nidai...the boshi is spot-on for the one Kanemoto is most well known for, the hada seems right, the mei is at least close (any additional comment being welcome) and the hamon is also at least close. It is my understanding that Magoroku's sanbon-sugi evolved during his career, but is generally irregular, and the "points" of the hamon are generally more rounded than later generations. I would expect to see, on a late generation kanemoto sanbon-sugi, a "regular 'two short and one tall' hamon"...this one is pretty well controlled, but does seem to fit the bill as irregular in that, in the large part of the hamon, there doesn't seem to be a strict adherence to this pattern. I'll see if I can take another pic or two to show some of the more "irregular" areas of the hamon and post them tonight...

 

Thanks again for all of the input, and I hope for more.

 

In the end, as is so often stated here, "Only shinsa will decide".

 

Rheinhard and Darcy are right,

 

Below, an oshigata of a blade made in his twilight years, you can see that the Sanbonsuji is always very irregular.

 

[Leatherdog]

Hello all;

 

Sorry for my absence, but I've been away "enjoying an extended Mesopotamian vacation" and now I'm back and still scratching my head about this wakizashi. Pg 110, vol III of the Koza states that there are "special traits" in the third and fourth stroke of the ji for MOTO. I have been staring at my blade and all of the oshigata I can find, and it seems to match for the Nidai Kanemoto/shodai "Magoroku". What I need at this point is a few sets of fresh eyes to evaluate the mei, since I am afraid of falling into the familiar trap of seeing what I want to see.

 

"Digital Kantei" is difficult, as everyone knows, especially when the photographer's skills are lacking (as mine are), AND the blade is in relatively poor polish (which mine is). What I think we can do adequately with photos, however, is evaluate mei, so that is what I hope to do.

[James]

I think what you need to do is go get it to Shinsa

[Leatherdog]

Well James, I can't argue with your assessment! :D

 

However, I don't believe I'll have the opportunity to travel to a sword show or shinsa before my next "extended vacation", and don't really want to send it through someone else. Just looking for opinions here regarding the mei.

[Leatherdog]

...and also to learn something if what I am seeing is wrong.

[John A Stuart]

These may help you. I scanned as best I could while trying not to break the spine. John