Namban Tsuba With A Hidden Cross?

[Kurikata]

Hi everybody,

 

I purchased this namban tsuba recently because it had a very nice mimi and no kozuka and kogai ana. Looking at the design (monkeys, gumbai etc... ) I discovered a cross at the top of it. Do you think i might be a Christian cross or is it a family mon ?

 

Thank you for your views on it.

 

Bruno

[Peter Bleed]

Bruno,

This is a NICE tsuba. And, yes, it does kind of look like it has a Cross right there. This does not to me look like a family crest. I think that the "hidden Christian" trope may be a bit overplayed. At least I have a hard time believing that early missionaries were able  to  truly convert as many people as seem to have been swept up in the Shimabara events. It may have had lots to do with regional and factional politics. In any case, there was a time when wearing this sort of thing could get you killed. This is an interesting fitting. Thanks for showing it.

Peter

[TETSUGENDO]

Bruno,

 

Very interesting Namban piece, facinating mixture of motifs...and the shakudo and silver mimi is great.   As for a Christian cross, possible.

 

-S-

[SteveM]

Agree with Peter and Steven above. Having said that, it does look more like a cross than the many "imagined" crosses that get posted.

But... it's not very well hidden. (It's also not a family crest)

So, I think its just a very nice tsuba. As for any deeper significance, while I wouldn't slam the door shut on that speculation, I would also be hesitant to make any definitive statement. As Peter says, the "hidden Christian" trope is a bit overdone. 

[TETSUGENDO]

Bruno, I find the juxtaposition of Ruyi sceptre and 'Cross'  thought provoking!

[kissakai]

This is a nice tsuba

It took me nearly two years to find a Namban tsuba with no hitsu ana

I was outbid on one then recently I found another and as a bonus is was 'kinko'

So in my opinion a rare type but maybe others disagree

[Fred Geyer]

This is a French Fleur De Lis Cross and they never made it to Japan before the "Boiling party so to say" started !!, I have this same style tsuba but mine has silver still left in the cross so meant to be seen !!

Yet they have two odd points 1) plain seppa dia and the the Fleur cross so old 1550 then late 1860 so not for sure about these. Unless they are VOC cast then chased and cleaned up, but mine shows a lot of corrosion in the inner pattern so not 1860 and looks every bit of 1550 to 1610 which is right

So this is one of the "Hummmm" tsuba?? Why this style of cross when never there ?? Maybe China tsuba ?? or India tsuba ?? As French had a very small base at these locations and we know the Imports were strong from both so just one of them to history.

 

 

Fred Geyer             

[TETSUGENDO]

Fred,

 

I don't see a Fleur de Lis Cross here, not a single lily in sight.  There are almost endless variations of this general form of cross, some of formal named varieties, and many more nameless ones.  Superficial resemblance is not enough...."the devil is in the detail".

 

Cheers,

   -S-

p.s.-Fred, if you would be so kind as to add a  pic of your tsuba, it would prove invaluable to future readers of this Post as this tsuba type is rather uncommon.

[Kurikata]

Dear all,

 

first of all thank you for your very kind comments.

 

@Steven: you have such a sharp eye to distinguish this ruyi scepter! I know that when we come to cross and christian symbols, all interpretations are possible.

@Fred: I do not see any "Fleur de Lys" in this cross. Any way the "Fleur de Lys" symbol means either a Royal French Crest or the Virgin Marie in the catholic religion.... very far from Japan, even jesuits (portuguese) influence

@Grev: Please provide a picture of your tsuba as you have heightened my interest in it.

 

Anyway : "TRES BONNE ET HEUREUSE ANNEE A TOUS LES AMATEURS DE TOSOGU"

 

Bruno

[Geraint]

Dear All.

 

Having enjoyed this tsuba and the topic I was doing some digging around and came across this paper, https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/21092/1/CofE%20Published.pdf

 

Written by the wonderfully named Timon Screech and published by SOAS it is a very detailed study of the period around 1600 and the causes of the rejection of Christianity by the shogunate.  

 

Hope it is of interest to some who are interested in Namban art.

 

All the best and Happy New Year

[vajo]

Looks like a variant of a St. James cross or "Heiliger St. Jakob".

 

 

[vajo]

A very nice and interesting Tsuba.

[Fred Geyer]

StevenK ,

 

you noted superficial resemblance is not enough...."the devil is in the detail"... OK is that money on the bottom a male or female????

 

do a little digging into the style and paintings from 1550 to 1650 you do not have to have Lillies on it "I get the name"

 

Also the object is represented in a .20 space and done from a visuial interpretation hard to put the "details" in a mass produced object.

 

The French were in China by 1560 but he main push was by 1685 and by the late 1700 there are notes showing over 150,000 Roman Catholics in China 

 

So this style or symbol of the cross was seen by many in many places and I am sure copied as well as the other objects represented on this tsuba

 

 

 

Fred Geyer    

[Fred Geyer]

[Pete Klein]

https://www.google.com/search?q=15th+century+sail+designs&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CfDE2cn2QrUTIjieE8tnC1l36dUSlh0i-qNB076w-LhcB2C27kfcn-edhLnJia_1nKDrCbK4Mr65t0PVi7hzKkBZI9CoSCZ4Ty2cLWXfpEVDhSbFgXyFzKhIJ1RKWHSL6o0ERcP7WUqxgV_1AqEgnTvrD4uFwHYBHeTq_1K4epzuCoSCbbuR9yf552EETlKPVGK1CnPKhIJucmJr-coOsIRk8lOvihBGNAqEglsrgyvrm3Q9RFZvjProiVDgyoSCWLuHMqQFkj0EZx6apFHTjJ_1&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHg7DwqcrfAhXxzVkKHYyQCFUQ9C96BAgBEBs&biw=1920&bih=931&dpr=1

 

a thought...

[Fred Geyer]

Pete 

 

you are 100% right there also, a seen symbol of odd foreign things ! Back then they loved it, there are so many books on the odd namban things that where put into the Japanese culture

 

Fred Geyer        

[Fred Geyer]

 

Here is another item from my collection on Japanese stuff, from Kyoto 1600

 

Kind of looks the same , made small and put on a tsuba 

 

Fred   

[TETSUGENDO]

An interesting game of 'telephone', everyone at the same virtual place/time saw a differing standard, yet arrived at the same port...that was my point.  Thanks for adding your tsuba Fred, it's most illuminating.....very nice Crucifix.

[Tim Evans]

This device or something very close to it is identified as a mon In Chapplear's book, Mon the Japanese Family Crest on page 96 with the following entries:

Name - Kurosu

Clans who used it - Shimazaki and Tsuji

 

No entry in Papinot for Shimazaki, but has the following to say about Tsuji:

"Samurai family of the Hiroshima clan (Aki). Made noble after the Restoration - Now Baron".

[Pete Klein]

"Name - Kurosu"  basically 'ca-ross-u'  along the line of  'che-ese-u'.  

[TETSUGENDO]

Tim,

 

Interesting info but ...unless these were one of his other 'business' ventures....unlikely.

 

-S-

p.s.- bon appétit!

[SteveM]

This device or something very close to it is identified as a mon In Chapplear's book, Mon the Japanese Family Crest on page 96 with the following entries:

Name - Kurosu

Clans who used it - Shimazaki and Tsuji

 

After looking around on the internet I have to revise my earlier, rather dismissive opinion that this wasn't a crest. I have to leave some wiggle room to accommodate Tim's accurate post above where he says something close to it is called the "kurosu", which seems to be distinctive from the Shimazu jūji cross, and the kutsuwa and hana-kutsuwa, all of which pre-date contact with Christians. 

 

クロス

クラス

久留子

来留子

花来留子

 

You can find examples under the various above names here http://kamondb.com/kibutsu/kurusu.html

 

The motif on Bruno's tsuba looks enough like the 花来留子 (hana-kurosu) that it makes me retract my earlier statement, and makes me interested enough to want to know more. But I remain skeptical to the kakure-kirishitan theory. 

[TETSUGENDO]

Steve,

 

All the exemplars on the link are adapted/adopted European/Middle Eastern Christian models, not a one is an original form....and non of them are the cross on the tsuba.  We can dance this Waltz forever, eventually we must sit and take pause.  Sans time-machine, I fear we are doomed to repeat this cycle again and again.

 

-S-

[Kurikata]

Anyway, a great thank you for all your comments and analysis. I didn't expect this tsuba to go throughout the new 2019 year.