Peter Bleed Masame Questions

[Vermithrax16]

Through some dialogue and interaction, Peter asked a few questions in another thread. I think it best to discuss it here in the Nihonto section.

 

His post:

"I opened a followed up conversation with Jeremiah to discuss this topic - and I was tempted to keep it there. But, what the heck, let's see if anybody else wants to discuss this topic.

1. Lets start by discussing blades with masame hada but questionable signatures. I don't know enough about Norikatsu to comment about him, BUT SIGNED  masame blades with either Hosho or Kunikane signatures are - well - always suspicious. How is a guy going to treat them? Does a questionable signature outweigh nice masame?

2. And what's wrong with Kunikanes other than 1-3? Who the heck WERE those guys What's wrong with their stuff?

3. Finally, what about mumei masame blades? They seem to come in two flavors: a) recently de-signed blades and  B) old blades that seem to have never been signed. How should be treat those swords? Do we respect swords that once had a signature that has been removed?

Peter"

 

[Vermithrax16]

1. A signed Hosho sword will almost certainly never leave Japan. So we don't need to worry about that . Kunikane had many generations and he is faked a lot as you have documented many times here on NMB. It depends on ones own goals; if masame is THE goal, go with the best work you can find and skip the mei validation if it's not important to you. For me I am looking for the best masame works by the best smiths that executed it. Thus, I want a validated mei to go along with the sword.

 

2. NOTHING! From what I can put together, the 3rd gen was the most skilled at masame execution. But here is a nice 13th gen right now for sale that is super nice:

https://www.aoijapan.com/katana-ou-kakae-masatomo-oushu-sendai-ju-kunikane-saku-kore-13-th-generation/

 

3. See #1 above. Mumei shinshinto is a no go, but if the quality of work is good enough, shinto and older should be fine, especially with a Tanobe sayagaki and/or papers.

[Stephen]

J you should Google his book that starts out right here in DM gun show. Fun read

[Brian]

https://www.amazon.com/National-Treasure-Peter-Bleed/dp/113840490X

[Peter Bleed]

Well, thank you Stephan and Brian,

I was surprised to see that the book is readable right there on Amazon. Boy does it describe a long lost world.

Peter

[Stephen]

I should have keep all my hard backs...lol

 

sorry back to OP sorry Jeremiah     

[Hoshi]

If you're goal is to acquire the best examples of masame for the money, go with Mumei Shinto and Shinshinto. Mumei swords of these eras are completely radioactive and thus you'll see an incredibly steep drop in the price - we're talking 70-90%+ discounts here, with rare exceptions for some freak smiths like mumei Kyomaro. That's incredible if your only concern is the quality of the work. Some of these smiths still have recognizable characteristics, and if you stick with the best exemplars of you'll get a solid hozon attribution to one of the top masame smiths of these era. 

 

Think about it for a moment. Take a top Shinto smith whose quality signed work is priced ~100K+ USD. Let's take Hankei, because his archetype Soshu style work is very recognizable and he's been weaponized as fake masamune/Norishige and the like so a lot of his work has been made mumei. Is the signature 'worth' 70K-90K USD to you? If your goal is only aesthetic appreciation, then definitely not. If you value the certainty of provenance, because its Hankei and its so specific and its the archetype then its not even in question. So what's left is only the mei and the fact that it wasn't used to swindle someone in the past out of his hard earned money. Is that worth 70-90% of the sword's value?

 

If you want top jigane quality for the money with quasi certainty in the attribution, go with highly distinctive, hozon-caped mumei shinto/shinshinto. 

[Wim V]

Mumei swords of these eras are completely radioactive 

 

Are you referring to the Fukushima disaster? (since lots of masame blades come from the Sendai region).  Sorry, stupid joke maybe, but I could not help myself ...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Say what?? :dunno:

[Vermithrax16]

Say what?? :dunno:

He was kidding

[Brian]

...Mumei swords of these eras are completely radioactive and thus you'll see an incredibly steep drop in the price

They are referring to this. Meaning people don't go near them.

[DRDave]

If you want top jigane quality for the money with quasi certainty in the attribution, go with highly distinctive, hozon-caped mumei shinto/shinshinto. 

 

 

Saw an absolutely beautiful masame hada tanto on a dealer website last year for ¥200,000.  Shinsakuto.