Tsukuru Vs Saku

[Bruce Pennington]

All,

 

While reading about Mantetsu-to, some people call this - 作 Tsukuru, while others call it Saku.

 

Is one or the other correct?

 

Thanks!

[Guest]

Hi Bruce,

 

A single character has two readings, it's all about On (Onyomi) and Kun (Kunyomi):

 

On readings are from Chinese (Saku approximates the sound of the original Chinese word)

 

Kun readings (Tsukuru) are from native Japanese.

 

Which reading you chose is a matter of context (Now there's a can of worms!!)

 

These should help get the ball rolling:

 

https://markussesko.com/2013/02/17/about-the-correct-translation-of-certain-sword-signatures/

 

On this link, zip down to the Japanese section:

 

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BD%9C

 

There ya go, clear as mud....

 

Thanks to Matt Mywei for clarifying!! 

[mywei]

Malcolm  - I believe its the other way round i.e the tsukuru pronounciation stems from the native/Japanese word

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Malcolm! Seems most guys use Saku, so I’ll just go with that. But at least now I’ll understand if I see someone using Tsukuru.

[Bugyotsuji]

Since Malcolm has inserted his tin/can opener and the worms are escaping, please allow me to agitate them further.

 

Faced with the character 作 if you say tsukuru you choose a word that even children will understand, and you emphasize the meaning, and the fact that the smith ‘made’ it, regardless of the kanji, because commonly-seen 造 also can be read tsukuru.

 

If you say Saku however, it sounds more adult and classical, and you are reading 作, or specifying that the smith inscribed this particular kanji.

 

(造 is not read Saku, but Zou)

 

Clear as mud now?

[Bruce Pennington]

Oye vey! It's getting worse! Ha!

 

You just mentioned "Zou", which the Mantetsu collectors have been calling "Tanzo".

 

Showa 14 (1939) to Showa 16 (1941) : 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄作之 (Mantetsu Saku Kore)

Showa 17 (1942) : 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄謹作 (Mantetsu Kin-Saku)

Showa 17 (1942) to Showa 18 (1943) : 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄作 (Mantetsu Saku)

Showa 18 (1943) to Showa 19 (1944) : 満鉄鍛造之 (Mantetsu Tanzo Kore)

 

Maybe I should have stuck with "Ignorance is bliss"!!!

[John A Stuart]

Haaaa! You have found a double 'trouble' 造作 John

[Guest]

So Piers,

 

Putting down my Hanzo Hattori can opener for a moment......

 

Saku 作 can be interpreted as the approximation of the terms  Me  Fecit and Pinxit oft encountered in Posh Western Art from the 12th century to last week in Chippenham.

 

 

 Chippenham is a small Market town in Wiltshire which approximates parts of the Appalachians in one way or another.......

[TETSUGENDO]

Malcolm,

 

Some common variants:   1-f. or fec. (fecit) 

                                               2- p. or pinx. or pin. (pinxit)  

                                               3- also, for sculptor, sc. , sculp., sculpsit.

 

Cheers,

    -S-

p.s.- Wiltshire=Appalachia 

[SteveM]

If you go back to the Markus Sesko page that Malcom linked to, you will find most of the answers you are looking for, even if the meaning is slightly fuzzy for beginning students of Japanese. Most sword signatures, even the modern ones, are intended to be in kanbun (classical Chinese) style. The writing is classical Chinese (or a Japanese variation of such), but the voicing, that is to say, the pronunciation of them when read out loud, should be in syntactically and grammatically correct Japanese. 

 

満鉄鍛造之 = kanbun. The modern Japanese equivalent would be as below

満鉄を鍛えて之を造る = normal Japanese grammar and syntax. The blue bits are needed in contemporary Japanese. Without them, the reader becomes lost and has to guess at the subject and object and verb. These things might be inferred from the context, but modern Japanese removes the ambiguity by including the verb endings and particles. Note that the kanji for kore (之) is seldom seen in modern Japanese. "Kore" is generally written in hiragana, and most Japanese probably only encounter the kanji 之 as part of a name, where it is read as yuki.

 

However, not everyone (including most Japanese nowadays) can recognize kanbun. And, even if they can recognize kanbun, it becomes tedious to explain to beginners why the word order, or the kanji order is reversed, and why the grammatical bits of modern Japanese are left out of the sword inscription. It becomes easier to say "Mantetsu tanzō kore", which satisfyingly matches word-for-word what is seen on the sword, and this mental shorthand is understood by experts and amateurs alike without vandalizing the meaning of the original inscription. So if I'm not mistaken, all of Bruce's examples above are kanbun, but it becomes cumbersome to write them out in grammatically correct Japanese, and its much easier to use the generally accepted abbreviated versions

 

興亜一心満鉄作之 Koaisshin Mantetsu de kore wo tsukuru > Koaisshin Mantetsu saku kore
興亜一心満鉄謹作 Tsutsushinde Koaisshin Mantetsu de tsukuru > Koaisshin Mantetsu Kinsaku
興亜一心満鉄作 Koaisshin Mantetsu de tsukuru > Koaisshin Mantetsu saku

満鉄鍛造之 Mantetsu de kitaete kore wo tsukuru > Mantetsu Tanzō kore

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for the additional information, Steve.  We'll all get there one day!

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Steve. That actually DID help!

[Bruce Pennington]

@SteveM, the dust got stirred a little over at Warrelics.  When asked about this, Nick Komiya came up with:

 

興亜一心　満鐵作之 = Kōa isshin Mantetsu kore wo tsukuru.
興亜一心　満鉄謹作 = Kōa isshin Mantetsu Kinsaku
興亜一心　満鐵作 = Kōa isshin Mantetsu-Saku
満鐵鍛造之 = Mantetsu kore wo Tanzoh-su.

 

Which to my untrained eye is a mix of the 2 versions discussed above. 

 

What are your thoughts?  I'd like to revise my SMR Mantetsu Sword article with however this plays out.

Thanks!

[SteveM]

Hello Bruce,

 

I wouldn't have any argument with Nick's judgment on these, including the last one (鍛造).

I think when I wrote that post in 2018 I was unsure of whether "Mantetsu" referred to the company, or the type of steel. (At the time, I reckoned it referred to the type of steel). My understanding now is that it refers to the company, so I'd want to go back and revise my original translations. Anyway, stick with what Nick has offered. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 minutes ago, SteveM said:

 

I wouldn't have any argument with Nick's judgment on these, including the last one (鍛造).

Thanks Steve.  I realize some of this is "tomAYto vs toMAHto", but just wanting to get the mei variations down as closely as possible.  I appreciate it, and all you do for us here!

[Kiipu]

I posted the first draft over at WRF.  Any comments or corrections welcomed on this end.

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey/Study, Post #84