Captured WWII Sword

[Frank B]

George, as Ray pointed out the blade currently is in need of proper restoration. Without restoration it is subject to further damage, by taking this stance you are indicating that you are complacent with the blade further deteriorating. As others have clearly told you, this is an important blade and historical object and as we are all just custodians of these historical objects it is our responsibility to keep them in good shape. Ultimately it's your choice what to do with it, but know that virtually everyone interested in nihonto would like to see it properly restored and maintained.  

[vajo]

We all only had the pieces for a short time in history in our possesion. The blades will all overlive us and our children. We should preserve and enjoy them for the time they stay with us. We all will leave this world but these swords will stay until the world exists. In this thought i look on these things. As a family hierloom i have a very straight view. Many swords came in a very short piece of human history to far countries after a cruel war in that they dont play a big role. They overlived the war and no many of them vegetate in bad condition in wardrobes, cellars or roofs. Only my thoughts. There is something bigger than we.

[Darcy]

All of the advice given above is correct. 

 

George, the information you are relaying is not what I had written to you. I was not saying the papering process is crazy, it is a comment on the market sometimes being irrational.

 

Another example: a blade with a questionable but not false signature ("to mei ga aru" note) will often price less than a similar blade that is unsigned. That makes no sense at all, because there is still a strong chance that the questionable signature blade will turn out to be authentic. 

 

So rationally the price should be:

 

false-signature < unsigned < questionable-but-possible < authentic

 

False signature is easily adapted to unsigned by removing the signature. But the market prices them like this:

 

questionable < unsigned < authentic

 

Which is not rational but reflects simply that a questionable signature makes people feel emotionally uncomfortable so some number of people shy away from them. That causes lowered demand which affects the price. What I was trying to express was the reaction of the market to something like an interrupted hamon and that's where I said if it were cut in half to be a wakizashi and a satsuma-age tanto, they could both pass Juyo and have substantial value. Thus in my opinion:

 

An intact ubu blade regardless of problems should be valued as MORE than what you'd get if it were cut in half. But the market may not agree, but that is my assessment that the blade regardless of those issues retains a lot of value. Less than it would be without the issues but I would value it higher than the average person would. 

 

Papering is simply communication about authenticity. If a young blade has a fatal flaw, it won't paper which is a holdover from the fact that these flaws will imply that their utility as a weapon has passed. It is also an attempt to protect collectors to some degree from such things. But since we are not going about bashing each other with swords anymore, issues that were important to samurai needing to kill with a blade should not be held so important to us as custodians and art lovers.

 

For old blades then "fatal is not always fatal" and I wrote about this topic on my blog. The older it is the more can be forgiven. The more positive attributes it has the more can be forgiven. And the papers are just a vocabulary we have to communicate with each other about the relative importance of blades, it is an imperfect vocabulary but it's necessary especially when we are talking about authenticity. 

 

It's really not a discussion that is supposed to be boiling down to papers. It is a discussion about whether or not the blade should be restored / given away to someone who can't properly maintain it like a military museum / put back in the gun safe / sold to someone who is prepared to invest in restoration. 

 

About your last sentence there about going on gut and sentimentality, that of course is your prerogative. It's your property.

 

Factor in that it's not just your property though to be treated based on personal sentimentality and "gut" thinking, because it is a historical and cultural artifact of which there is no other perfectly similar object in existence.

 

If you do decide to say the hell with everyone giving good advice and the hell with all of that advice and that your gut knows better, at the very least talk to someone here who can tell you something about how to maintain it or pay for someone to make a shirasaya so it can at least be stored properly and oil the blade forever and it will lower the rate of further decay. You will be out a few hundred dollars and you are already way ahead of the game because of donated time and materials from Michael, Ray, me, Ted, Tanobe sensei and every board member who took time to weigh in.

[Katsujinken]

Believe or not, I don’t envy George in this moment. It’s an incredibly tough spot. I agree with the advice given in this thread – family heirlooms are priceless in a way, but when we discover a new Da Vinci or fossil from a new species of dinosaur, we also a have a responsibility to history and those who will come after us.

 

I sincerely wish George and his family the best, and again want to thank Darcy, Ted, Ray, and everyone else who contributed. In many other similar hobbies, George would likely have swum right into a school of sharks. Heck, in this hobby, if he’d gone to the wrong place, he’d have found predators waiting.

 

So thanks be to everyone, and to Brian, for maintaining this space in the right spirit.

[Brian]

If there is ONE thing NOT to do, it is to donate it to any form of museum outside of Japan. That would be the worst thing you can do. It will be thrown in a drawer and forgotten to rust away.
If you want to keep it, all the good advice about that has been given.
Preserving it is far more important than anything else.
If it were me? I would think up a figure I am happy with, and consign to Darcy to take it from here. Packing it away for a few more years has no benefit at all anyone, yourself included.
Wish you well with the decision. A lot of guys walked this path with you. Now you need to know what road to take.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

In my primary collector world, a friend has a huge hoard (vs collection) of antique firearms and some various militaria, collected over 50 years in the military and traveling.  He's in ill health, and while I hope he has lots of time left, age catches everyone eventually. He has no will, keeps talking about "someone in the family is a lawyer, but I think he retired."  ANY family attorney can draft a basic will.

 

I've helped him ID, and list for sale, several interesting and sometimes valuable items.  He showed me a scarce Mauser, in a cabinet in the basement, with mildew blooming on the stock. I offered to clean, oil, and suggested it would do better upstairs, or potentially sold as it's got some value.

 

"I think I want to hang onto this a bit longer."  And back into the cabinet, with mildew destroying the wood.

 

He has a bunch of what are called DEWATs--Deactivated War Trophy machine guns.  He says he has paper for them, which means legally they can be converted back to functional machine guns, and are worth tens of thousands each, but only if he can find, or replace the Form 4s.  I've suggested my firearm attorney, or another local one, can contact ATF for him and arrange replacement stamps, as each stamp is only good for a particular firearm (like Japanese sword certificates).  He keeps repeating, "I just want to find them, just to have my hands on them!"  Which is not the important matter, legally. Proving their existence is the important matter.

 

Ultimately, if he dies intestate without those forms in evidence, even deactivated as they were in the 1960s does not meet the current legal standard, and those will have to be torch cut into pieces. I've never seen an MP-18 (early German subgun) in the wild, and he has one.

 

But they are his.  I hope we can avoid a loss to history, and it's clear if his sister inherits she'll take the first offer of, "A bunch of junk, but we'll clean out for free if you let us keep what's sellable."  And then lots of rare guns will be destroyed, and lots of swords and other guns will be sold cheap at auction with no provenance, and crates of historical books and papers will be tossed into a dumpster.

 

I've had several people hand me their estates' knives and swords, thinking, "There's not much here," and I'll point out a rare Kriegsmarine dirk ($1500), a prototype US Army bayonet ($3000), and a hand made piece from a known collector ($2000).

Everything of mine is on a detailed spreadsheet against this risk, and in my case, I'm fortunate that my eldest daughter looked at it and said, "Dad, we're not selling your swords and guns, we're fighting over them."

 

But without a generation appreciating what's there, and knowing who to ask at the very least, stuff winds up in garage sales, eBay, chopped up to "make something good out of this old junk," and ultimately lost to family, culture, and world, history.

 

However, I'm very pleased to have seen the information on George's sword and the history it adds to the discussion. No matter what happens, we now have that.

 

It's obvious you do respect and appreciate the sword for its history, even if not in quite the same way as collectors. Whatever decision you make, please make sure your family remains aware of the significance, of both that and other artifacts.

[Curran]

 

    I was the individual who resigned the spot with Tanobe-sensei (arranged last year), as I felt that this was something exceptionally important whose discovery should see light of day. I would really encourage you, as Darcy mentions above, to consider

 

George:

 

It figures it would be Ray. You have about as holy of a western nihonto trinity as possible working for you.

You must have somewhat of the feeling of being put on deck as a rookie hitting in the final inning of Game 7 World Series. Still, you cannot ask for a better team.

 

Amid all of the most excellent advice here [NMB showing its worth], I just have to cast the vote for restoration- however you have to mitigate the expense.

I don't know you, but I would personally donate $100 to this, GoFundMe or NMB-FundMe, or whatever. The story had been worth it.

 

Unlike the rare early serial number 1862 Police Revolver I inherited from an ex-Union Captain veteran (Great Uncle), this is something so rare and also so certain to decline outside of professional hands- that I ask you to please greatly consider moving forward sooner than later. Darcy has laid a later path for you with Benson, but you just have the stars lining up for you now. Go a little further, if at all possible.

 

As a family heirloom, I don't care how much someone offers me for the 1862 Police Revolver. It isn't for sale.

As a preservationist of history, I would sell it rather than almost certainly have time tip it into the terminal bin.

Please--   Go a little further, if at all possible.

[vajo]

The point is, all worth is in the information about a piece. If you don't know about what you have you have no worth. Now the worth and the importance is known, the money rotates in mind. Money is something that comes and goes. The importance and the worth of preserving is something that is not negotiable. The piece will not become healthier by keeping it to wait for more money. I don't know about the worth of the sword. That is something i didn't want to know because it is not mine, but i see the importance for a culture and that is priceless. 

[MichaelZWilliamson]

I would be willing to contribute to having this properly polished.

[Brian]

Yeah, me too.

[Virginian]

I can't be the only "regular Joe" on this board! Let me lay it out. I make less than 30k a year in military retirement. I make a little more from other sources, but not much. My kids are adults and provide for themselves, so I don't need much. My wife and I rarely eat out and we live a very country lifestyle. This isn't a pity party because this is how I choose to live. I grew up in a house with no electricity or running water and wouldn't have missed it for the world.

 

Now picture me trying to justify spending a third of my annual income to polish and paper an object that one of the top experts in the field says is "a roll of the dice". Darcy asked if I "felt lucky", because while it would always be worth the price of the polish, it might be worth less than before the procedure took place.

 

If this sword is truly a historical object that means so much to the world, why are there few offers to buy it and take on the cost of polish/papers? I now know what a historical blade value is in Japan and it doesn't overcome my sentimental value.

 

I appreciate and will never overlook the efforts of so many to get where we are today. From giving up a spot in the line up, to walking the sword through a gauntlet of top experts in the field, to identifying it on this board in the first place... but then the real world kicks in. I have been told by the premier dealer in the world that a polish could possibly further damage the blade. Darcy has generously offered to cover the polishing cost, but that cost comes out of a sale that may be lower than when we started. There has to be at least one individual on this board that understands that kind of risk. I'm almost positive that not everyone on this board is rich... There are numerous Marine's on this board and I've never met a rich Marine!

 

I truly appreciate the one or two people here who aren't envious of my situation, but I'm a realist and a survivor. I was a Marine Drill Instructor for 8 platoons, so there are roughly 500 people in the world who pray every night before they go to bed, that I suffer a tragic death.

 

I also appreciate offers to help with the cost of polish, but I would never in a million years take money from strangers for such a thing. Call it pride, but to me it's just who I am. I have never been given anything, or taken a free ride and I won't start now. I have already told Ted that I will reimburse him for his expenses of getting the blade shipped to him and carrying it to Japan. Even though Darcy offered his services for free, I will gladly reimburse him as well.

 

Thanks again to each and every individual on this board who has impacted this event. I can never express my gratitude enough for the kindness and well wishes. Truth be told, the more time I spend here, the more I realize I don't have much in common with most of the members. I promise to care for the blade to the best of my ability and ensure my heirs know what they have. The sword has received more love in the last month than it has in the last 75 years.

 

Take care,

George VO

[Frank B]

George,

 

As it seems you are leaning towards keeping it. Take Darcy's advice and get a proper shirasaya made/oil the blade. This won't fix anything, but it will delay the rate of the blade's deterioration.

[PNSSHOGUN]

If there is so much sentimental value why do you want to see it slowly decay into something worthless? Monetary value is not what's important here, it's historical value and preserving both the sword and the incredible story we actually know, nevermind the ones lost in the 800+ years since it was made. 

[Mark]

i agree -- if it has sentimental value that exceeds the monetary value (and you have a fair idea of that based on the offer Darcy forwarded to you) then 1. have shirasaya made (we can recommend who to do it), 2. oil and preserve the blade. 3. print all info in this thread and contact info for all those you think are helpful and honest and keep that file with the sword (that way when you are gone the next owner will know what they have and if they decide to sell how to proceed). 

 

I also agree -- in your situation it is too much of an expense and gamble to have it restored, and i see your point in not accepting charity to do it.  You have received great advise here but don't let some here talk you into something you are not comfortable with. You know more that when you started. The NMB is a good resource.

[Blazeaglory]

Wow. Just wow. I was reading this thread from the beginning and kind of drifted away for a while until now. I'm amazed and deeply moved! Seriously reading this is like reading that a Saxon horde was discovered or Oak Island treasure was found!

 

I'm so happy that we can still find blades like this! So there's hope! I'm actually still in a bit of shock!

 

Anyways, Kudos to all involved! And congrats to the current caretaker! Treat it well and know the money you invest will pay off one day. If not making you a profit, it will keep the blade from decaying and eventually someone will make you an offer. With high end items such as this, you have less people who are interested who actually have the funds to buy. But they are out there and it will sell, but they want to see it polished and in a proper shirasaya.

 

Or keep and pass down for your future kin but that also requires a proper shirasaya.

 

Either way, I'm sure you'll make the right choice and be alright

[Darcy]

 

Now picture me trying to justify spending a third of my annual income to polish and paper an object that one of the top experts in the field says is "a roll of the dice". Darcy asked if I "felt lucky", because while it would always be worth the price of the polish, it might be worth less than before the procedure took place.

 

 

 

Again, that is not quite what I said and is missing context.

 

I told you the blade will always be worth more than the cost of the polish, so in that regard, is an easy decision to make. 

 

The rolling the dice part is that the value will go UP or DOWN based on a substantial offer that you received and refused from a high level collector in Japan, should you polish it yourself. Polish can reveal more issues or address current ones. 

 

You are painting this as your blade having nil value like you thought on day one and that polish according to my advice may put you into the negative and I wrote several times the exact opposite. 

 

I have to give some context here, there was an offer that is substantial. More than most members here have had to pay for polished and papered blades. Overlapping into the low bar of already Juyo blades on the mid range Japanese sites. When it was refused it was following a line of logic that money is just not a big motivation for this family so the offer wasn't of interest if it didn't advance other goals for the family. And I understand and respect that.

 

But the opposite side of the coin is used: we have a low military income and money is an important thing to us that we cannot spend on something we don't understand is necessary and seems frivolous like restoring a sword. And I understand that too. But the two statements where they come together is what starts making me feel frustrated because they are contradictory.

 

 

If this sword is truly a historical object that means so much to the world, why are there few offers to buy it and take on the cost of polish/papers? I now know what a historical blade value is in Japan and it doesn't overcome my sentimental va

 

For a few reasons:

 

1. People find it disrespectful to bombard an owner with offers unless the owner comes out and says it is for sale. One of the reasons I want it back in your hands is so that you can say that to people if you want and consider offers, with the blade in your hands, and not while it is in my hands, so I can cleanly exit from any association of the blade being something I'm marketing.

 

2. The blade does not yet have a license and cannot move around easily in Japan. Nobody can see it except the importer of record (who offered to buy) and a couple of sword people that had a chance to see it as I was physically moving it from pickup to analysis by Tanobe sensei to delivery with the person who would complete the torokusho using the temporary import certificate. The final person who has physical custody of the blade and stated a few times he likes it very much in spite of the problems and backed that with an offer, will complete and get the license and at that point it could be moved around and shown. But all collectors will tell you of the rookie that came to the show one day and started in one corner, and went to the other, asking for offers, crossing out names and putting in the new high offer. Nobody wanted to really be part of that. They wanted to have a price they could afford be told to them and then a chance to buy it or not. That offer was left on the table as uninteresting, without any counter being made to him, which is OK because he is not a counter offer kind of guy. 

 

3. While one person is looking at a sword, we do not go at it like we're trying to navigate a broken stop light at an intersection in Mumbai. That person looking at the sword has a chance to do something about it. If not then the next person has a chance. Unless you put it on a table at a sword show with a price tag on it where everyone can come up and take their turn making an offer, the sword is there in relative secrecy because it was about getting it authenticated and restored. 

 

4. A lot of people are not comfortable with risk so prefer to keep their finger in the pot and see what happens as the polish process completes and the blade papers. This kind of buyer is then in the market. Another kind of buyer prefers stuff coming "out of the woodwork" like this and is a risk taker by habit and pride and looks for the chance to fix these up. These two buyers pay different prices, the hunter and risk taker is absorbing someone's risk so they want a lower price. The retail buyer who wants it ready before he looks at it pays higher but he doesn't tolerate any risk. 

 

5. Because that offer you got was substantial it is above what a lot of people can actually pay, though it is not beyond the means of all to pay. Every member on this board if you just made a draw, every member would submit their name and hope to be the owner of it. But if you asked everyone on the board if they could buy it from you the answer would be yes, depending on the price, and a lot of them saw the initial estimates and knew that it would never fall to a value that they could afford it. And what I produced for you was something that I wrote to you and described to you as a *bottom line valuation* based on a real world offer rather than an estimate. That bottom line means that we know the market value is no lower than that offer. We do not know what the top line valuation is, but I think it is not higher than the guess I made and posted here and I said was contingent based on no problems coming up. Since we have a problem come up, the valuation of the blade is between that top estimate and the bottom line established by a real offer. 

 

In terms of time: it's been since March 21st and if your expectations is that the entire world of swords will be at your door already, you have to understand, we're off in one corner speaking english. A lot of collectors don't read the board. Japanese are the majority of the market and they don't know of your blade. 

 

And your blade is not yet presentable because it needs to be:

 

- polished

- papered

- new shirasaya made for it

- new habaki

 

And then one of:

- sayagaki

- hozon papers

 

To authenticate the signature.

 

After this:

 

- communicated in bulk to buyers that it is available for purchase and you have set a price 

 

And after you do all this it is not hunting where you go out and grab a buyer and force your item down their neck. It is fishing. You have your hook in the water and maybe the fish will bite. You are depending on ONE guy who has SEEN the blade who CAN AFFORD it and what's more HAS IT NOW because he didn't just have to put a new roof on the doghouse who is scholarly and can accept that an OLD BLADE HAS OLD BLADE PROBLEMS. Each one of those things narrows down the field.

 

 

 

 I'm almost positive that not everyone on this board is rich... There are numerous Marine's on this board and I've never met a rich Marine! 

 

 

What is on this board is mostly guys who have enough pent up energy about swords that they want to talk about it and share info on a daily basis and argue about it too sometimes (a lot of the time), and come from all walks of life. This board can be an outlet for them to see and discuss things they don't get to come into contact with in the real world except behind glass. It is not a bunch of Ferrari driving supermodel dating rich dudes. It's enthusiasts. 

 

 

 

I also appreciate offers to help with the cost of polish, but I would never in a million years take money from strangers for such a thing. Call it pride, but to me it's just who I am. I have never been given anything, or taken a free ride and I won't start now. I have already told Ted that I will reimburse him for his expenses of getting the blade shipped to him and carrying it to Japan. Even though Darcy offered his services for free, I will gladly reimburse him as well. 

 

They are not offering to give it to you George.

 

They are offering to give it to the sword.

 

Because they want to save the sword from future decay and also, if lucky, get to see what it looked like under all that crap. Ted and I have seen the hamon coming through now and it is beautiful and tasteful. I don't want to get too far into what the NBTHK will do or won't do, but if a polisher can pull something out of that blank zone (and I wrote on one side I feel like I can see a ghost of a line, but the rest of it looks like dense activities of ko-nie going down to the ha), then I think that given my experience the blade will pass up to Juyo. If the whole hamon came out like it seems to be indicating without an issue it could pass up to Tokuju. The lower level they will pass it to Hozon or possibly Tokubetsu Hozon. 

 

So I think the sure level is getting Hozon and then possibly TH or Juyo but that is a decision that they will make and not me. I feel pretty good about TH and if I got TH I'd have no second thoughts about sending it for Juyo. If it got rejected at Juyo it would not change my thinking one bit on the blade. 

[Curran]

I also appreciate offers to help with the cost of polish, but I would never in a million years take money from strangers for such a thing. Call it pride, but to me it's just who I am. I have never been given anything, or taken a free ride and I won't start now.

 

I respect most of your point of view.  I also don't offer up $100 that easy. It was a statement, as I threw it out first and know this case is so exceptional that many would join in. You don't get Spartacus moments like that very often, even on NMB.

 

As a dipshite kid from rural Georgia who had a very different life opened to him by a generous offer from the Japanese Govt long ago, I encourage you to reconsider. Accepting that kindness and paying it forward bettered the life of several families here and in Japan.

    On the flipside, partially thanks to Japan, I ended up at a famous university and someone's sense of humor was to stick the poor kid from Georgia with the prince from [Asian country]. As that prince watched me scratch through a slavelike existence at that university, the one big mistake I made was to be too proud to accept another man's offer of financial help. It cost me a great friendship, because I was too financially proud to take it.

    As he took over the finances of his country a few years ago, maybe his memory of 1st world USA me grinding it out in front of 2nd world prince influenced him in some small way. Maybe, maybe not. My regret is that I so busy focusing on my pride that I lost out on a friendship with one of the most interesting persons I could ever have known. In hindsight, it also cost me another year of my life when accepting that hand would have been the all around better thing to do.

 

There are 2 stories there. The first was a great success. The second is one of my most sincere regrets in life. The prince was a sincere good fellow, but my youth and pride were too much to see it properly back then. With age comes a lot.

     Speaking of age, this sword has a history of many many centuries and many families. Certainly multiples of age and families compared to my 1862 Police Colt. It coming to your family from another family and many families before it cuts both ways. It was someone else's great sadness, resignation, and respect towards your grandfather. If you cannot accept the most sincere offer towards the polish, then please consider the respectful donation of new shirasaya and lessons in its care towards its preservation. Please.

[Darcy]

On my end, I've just left Japan and had some other work I needed to complete. I haven't had chance to sleep much and have been working 7 day weeks for a few years but the last two trips took a lot out of me and I'm looking at my state of health with all this computer time and not liking what it is projecting to.

 

Right now there is a blue blue ocean 30 feet outside my door and I am expending time trying to explain the intricacies of the sword market. 

 

The community has this one in good care. 

 

I've handed in about all the advice I can and I'm going to have myself a little sword vacation for a while. 

 

It will take about 3 weeks or so for the torokusho to be completed, and then 2 weeks or so to undo that and another week to send it back to the USA so during that time I'm still here for the owner to tell me what to do via email and I'll just be executing tasks. 

[Vermithrax16]

Cannot be more proud of Gakusee (Michael S), Darcy, Ted, Raymond, and many others on all this. A rare opportunity at history. All went above and beyond for this effort, and it makes me happy to see that.

 

Very nice gentlemen.

[Stephen]

George your my kind of Marine, a straight shooter telling us like it is in your world.

I have no sage advice, what id like you to do while your sword is going thru paces in Japan. 

Go Fishing, take it of the main burner in your life.

Need a fellow poor boy marine to chat with  i got your six. 

 

true facts the sword will never be what it used tobe, your great Dads sword from the war.

you own it (and or family) is no longer true, it owns you. There it is, along with its great status in the Nihonto world, something bigger than all of us.

 

I know you know this but the stars sure alined for you come where you are now. Let it sink in, no pressure. the next two months is plenty of time. 

 

oh if you do go fishing dont use any bait. just watch the bobber floating around. 

 

PM me if you like

[Tom Darling]

George,

 

Darcy and Tanobe sensei agree that it is authentic, ditto. The provenance (family clan) of 800 years ago, is a great deal of importance and invaluable aspect.  The condition is what it is, do nothing. Your story reminds me of my favorite movie, "They Died With Their Boots ON". Brigadier Gen. George Armstrong Custer, my hero. Your sword might have been owned by Gen  Custer?  I'll trade you Sitting Bulls knife for your sword, ha ha.  A couple of his quotes, "There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry".  Does this one sound familiar, in keeping with your decision  "My purpose is to make my narrative as truthful as possible  ". Have Darcy send your sword, as soon as he can.  If the Japanese  Cultural Affairs Ministry  get involved, you'll be promoted to a General pay grade

0-10. Congratulations. " Good luck Soldier".

 

Tom D.

[Blazeaglory]

Well said everyone! and I'd like to add, with all due respect... and then I'll shut up for the night.

 

To OP.

 

My family is military and my grandfather is/was a WW2 vet. They would all die for family, friends, and country. All hard workers and proud. So I understand, to an extent, how you might be feeling in this case. I would like to suggest maybe, if you could accept help from the members of this board, with whatever it is they may come up with. Just know that many here who have been doing this for years and decades and they feel a deep love and appreciation, as I'm sure you do, in regards to Nihonto. Any help given would not reflect poorly on yourself. It would be for the respect and betterment of the sword. We can all chip in !!!

 

It looks like your Grandfather found a very rare historical item, with deep family meaning in Japan and now, with your family in America. Any help to keep it safe is good and it's sentimental and

monetary value will be worth it.

 

My 2 cents. Ill shut up now.

[ChrisW]

Whatever happens, I hope the best for such a stunning piece of history and such an irreplaceable story. George, I thank you for sharing this with us, regardless of how you decide.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

And I would say, as an artifact brought back by the General, it should be preserved in that context. It's an important context between their culture and ours, during the War. Everyone has heard a story like this. This one actually happened. It's not about the financial value of the sword.

 

There's a scene in the remake of The Thomas Crown Affair where the kids on a museum field trip are looking at an early Monet, utterly unimpressed by the Impressionist school of art. Until the teacher tells them it's worth $100 million. Then they're interested.

 

Is the painting really worth that? No, because it's not and will never be for sale. That's what it is insured for.  But that number is CONTEXT for school kids.

 

What is this sword worth?  Who cares? It's not worth "money."  It's worth HISTORY. And whether in the hands of family or collector, that is its value. If it loses the history, it's just an old piece of junk from the war. Then it dies, and is forgotten, and has no value.

 

The reason people value papered swords is the history.  With or without papers, this one has history, but the papers would help document that for:

 

The General

The Family

The Corps

The US

Japan

WWII

The Smith

World History

 

I had two near identical Spanish Puerto Seguro sabers.  One was near mint. The other was rippled from impact in a cavalry charge, bent slightly from being withdrawn, and blood-etched.  It probably actually killed communists.

 

That one sold for more.

 

I have a Reising submachine gun that is generally considered a low grade weapon.  This one had the stock cut, was smuggled back in some Marine's duffelbag, professionally reassembled, and rebarreled. Possibly the original barrel was damaged.  It finally got papered in 1968 during the Amnesty. Whoever this Marine was, and we'll never know, he REALLY needed a machine gun back home, and a Reising was all he could get.  But it was professionally rebuilt, and every tweak for reliability was done.  Possibly he was an armorer.  It's all speculation. I'd have GLADLY paid extra to know who this guy was, where, and why he chose to smuggle a Reising back.  Because that story would make it more than just "a WWII Bringback."  That would make it a documented piece of history.

 

So by all means keep the sword. It's yours, your family earned it. But consider that it deserves to have its story told, to go with your grandfather's story, so the world will better understand that time and the people involved.

[Virginian]

Thank you guys. I'm glad to see not everyone believes I wake up every morning with a plan to destroy this blade!

 

Darcy is correct in saying I received a substantial offer for the sword, but please humor me for a minute: If I have to finance the house I'm trying to build for my mother, the amount offered would lower my payment on a loan of 150k by $129. Would anyone here sell something like this to save $129? I don't have a bunch of money, but I will reach down and find that much in order to keep this sword.

 

In another story that completely baffles me: I spent the entire day yesterday pulling a 1932 Ford Coupe out of the barn where my stepfather kept it since 1955. He bought it when he was 20 years old and started to hotrod it. He died over a year ago and left my mother a widow. In order to build this house, I decided to sell it. This car has been in a barn for about 65 years; has surface rust; incorrect headlights, taillights, engine, wheels and interior. It also has a "fatal flaw"... the engine is locked up. They probably made 20,000 '32 Ford Coupes and I'm sure a couple thousand remain. Long story short, I asked a friend to find out what is was worth and attempt to sell it. It sold in under 5 minutes on his Facebook page for $6,000 more than I was offered for the sword. In addition, a film crew came and documented the entire event for a future show.

 

I know there are more car people than sword people, but how does an 87 year old inoperable car (covered in dust and mouse crap) bring more in America, than an 800 year old sword is valued by the top collector in Japan? I'm not saying it wasn't a fair offer, I'm just saying that I will never sell the sword for that amount.

 

I am conferring with Darcy about the possibility of leaving the sword in Japan for either a possible sale, or in case I change my mind and have it polished. I'll wait to hear from him on his recommendation. I would like to sell it to a board member who would appreciate it and give it the respect it deserves... but most of all, make the tough decisions about its future. I don't like to play people off each other for a sale and I understand that the Japanese people refuse to bid against each other, but I don't have a lot more options to get this house built without a mortgage payment. I will entertain offers for the sword, or will listen to recommendations for a worthy price.

 

Thanks again,

George VO

[Brian]

George,
The reason is because it is a sword. Very simple.
There is a reason why you can buy a top sword for $50K, but a top painting will cost you $50 Million.
Swords are not in fashion. The world in general doesn't care about them. They are a bad investment. You almost never sell for a profit.
It's a sword. On old one, yes. But a sword. A rusted piece that only appeals to a tiny fraction of collectors. Now compare with car collectors. And what do you do with a sword? You restore it, then put it away and occasionally pull it out, look at it, then put it away again.
With a car, you climb in it, you drive it. Easy to see why there is 1000 times more appeal to collectors.
It is completely logical that your car fetched that, and a sword doesn't. I don't know the offers so far, but bear in mind that this is not one of the top swords in Japan. It's a great sword...but there are lots of great swords. There were over 25,000 smiths?
In 20 years, the sword will likely be worth less, not more. If that haven't been banned worldwide by then.
Anyways...still your decision. I think setting a value you would like and leaving that up to experts to try and achieve would be best.
In South Africa, a lump sum on a house equals HUGE money saved down the line. But then our interest rates are over 10%.
It shouldn't be about the money anyways, and I am sure it isn't.

[Stephen]

mis read above post. What was the price offered? that way we know if your being unreasonable.  

 

 

 

 

 

edit

Edited April 5, 2019 by Stephen

[Virginian]

Brian, that is a very good point that I hadn't considered and I appreciate the input. The only comment I would add is that car owners spend 100k to restore a car and most will never see the open road. They are trailered everywhere they go.

 

Your point also somewhat makes my point; swords are very important to only a handful of people, so when the board members hammer me about the extreme importance of this blade, is it really all that important in the grand scheme of things, or only a handful of people? Everyone thinks their hobby or collection is superior. A local auction house sold a small hanging

cupboard from 1800 by a builder with probably less than 10 known works for $962,000. There are over a million known woodworkers from that time and I bet only a handful of collectors, and yet....

 

To a sword collector this decision is a breeze. To a non collector, I'm being pulled/pushed in a thousand different directions. I'm almost guaranteed to make a less than perfect decision according to sword people. When I bounce the info of this off of my friends, they think I'm the only one making sense... which is scary. Somewhere in the world is a guy who will pay a million bucks for a Pop Tart that looks like Tom Petty and it will never make sense to the rest of the planet, but it did to him.

 

Thanks,

George VO

[Tom Darling]

George, you can be my agent when I sell my swords. Cheers.

 

Tom D.

[SAS]

George, just so you know, there are a lot more members of the board here who haven't commented on this thread, than those who have, so characterizing the board  by the comments of a few members is perhaps drastic. I am not a rich man either (lots of us aren't) and living on VA and SS disability. We are not all elitists