Captured WWII Sword

[dwmc]

This is the type of story that in my opinion is worthy of a much wider audience. The type which airs on the History or AHC channels.

A story such as this is what brings many people who have never had interest in Nihonto to become potential enthusiast.

 

George's outstanding military family history, sword captured in Pacific Theater, remains mostly neglected for 70+ years, eventually brought to the attention of the NMB, alert members point out potential of being a significant find, Ted and Darcy hand deliver sword to Japanese experts for preliminary authentication, then on to polish and official Shinsa , potential of being historical find...Great story, very interesting indeed!!!

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[raynor]

Sure beats all the reality crap on TV these days, I'd watch that documentary.

 

Some collector or museum will be very happy and a lady in Virginia wont have to worry about rent for her home.

 

Swords like this are treasures but if the outcome is a son able to provide his mom a home, that beats owning all the swords in the world.

[Darcy]

Rather than a window, Ted was able to get some uchigumori and is doing the whole blade. It's not a polish but an attempt to reveal the hamon. Done with the permission of the owner.

 

It has come out as choji midare based on suguba with some notare. Boshi is present, takes more work to expose it, jihada coming out and looks good. 

 

It is textbook Ko-Ichimonji.

[Gakusee]

Excellent, just excellent......thanks for the update, Darcy

[Vermithrax16]

Good story!

[Prewar70]

Pictures?!

[Surfson]

All I can say is Wow!  So satisfying to have a front row seat on this.

[Katsujinken]

I heard about this thread in person from another collector today (I don’t normally read this section), and I’m so glad I checked it out.

 

My hat is off to Michael, Darcy, Ted, and everyone else involved in helping out.

 

What a ride...

[Surfson]

We are waiting for the next installment of the story.   

[Darcy]

So we have wrapped it up in Japan for the blade. It's been positively appraised by Tanobe sensei and there is some interest from Japanese collectors in buying it as is. However, the blade after it gets its torokusho will end up being re-exported and returned to the USA. It needs to get restoration by some top hands in Japan due to its age and that it's a bit thin and this goes hand in hand with some risk. I think probably some time is needed to process all of the information and decide what to do with it as well as how best to handle that risk. So it will come back to the USA and back to the owner and he will consider its future either as an heirloom for his own family or a future sale or donation. My own job is done and signed off on, we authenticated the blade and I will certainly vouch for my conversations with Tanobe sensei over the blade.

[Surfson]

George, I suggest that you let Darcy help you get the most value from this sword in a sale.  From what you said about your Mom needing a home, that would be a great result - putting the sword in the hands of a collector or museum that treasures it and letting your grandfather's legacy take care of his descendants.  Whatever you decide, congratulations on a fantastic good fortune!

[Prewar70]

Any pictures that can be shared?  Shirasaya and sayagaki by Tanobe sensei?

[Stephen]

Well done Darcy,  was wondering what your recommendation would be.

[Brian]

Bravo Darcy, overall a fantastic result, and I trust when the owner decides what to do with it, he will consult with you.
I bet that stirred things up a bit in Japan. So no polish or papers for the forseeable future?

[Curran]

Bravo guys, for taking care of George VO and getting this to the right hands of Ted and Darcy.

 

George VO:   thank you for a very interesting read.

                      May things work out for you.

 

Best regards to all who helped-

Curran

[Darcy]

It can't get a sayagaki without a new shirasaya, and it being in polish. It can't do those without engaging in some risk, as it needs an expensive polisher and fine hands. The owner is not willing at this point to engage in any risk and is unsure what to do and I think the valuation question is difficult to answer in terms of how-much-money-would-someone-hand-over without a completed polish. Any sword collector will understand the issues trying to value a rusty sword and the nature of polishing. So it really needs to go back into the owner's hands and for his family to make a decision about what path they want to take. The mission was not to sell the blade but to authenticate it and prevent it from being predated if it was authentic. Those were successes and after this the family needs to discuss what they want to do and how. To them it is an heirloom and maybe more value to keep, but there is some stubborn resistance to the idea that it needs to go through a somewhat risky restoration process if it is going to be locked into some kind of condition that won't decay further.

 

Having the blade back in one's hands when you don't know the field is the only way to feel firmly in the driver's seat, so this was my recommendation to the owner, facing some uncertainty and dealing with opinions from people he's never met or known by email for a couple of weeks.

 

My primary worry is that it goes back into the gun safe, is forgotten, rusts further, hands down a generation, ends up on ebay, is sold to someone who hands it to an amateur polisher who sandblasts it and kills the blade for good. 

 

But it's up to the family to decide now if it's their private heirloom of their grandfather's exploits and what condition in which to keep the blade, or to sell it and I don't think selling it is on the table at the value it can get in the current state. A lot of people who have something like this adopt an all-or-nothing mentality and anyone who is buying a sword that is rusty, you know when someone wants from you a full retail Ginza shop price that you don't want to adopt their risk and pay that out if you can walk into a Ginza shop and spend the same amount on a Juyo blade with no risk and walk out of there with after market service and a place to return it if you need cash in the future. So there is some tension in this kind of decision and I think it just needs time for them to sort out the priorities and what is the most desirable outcome.

 

I accomplished my mission, so I am basically checked out. I have a secondary mission which is that the blade doesn't end up on ebay and killed in a possible future that is probably on the scale that is outside of all of our lifetimes. But it's something you need to worry about with something like this, there are only 5 signed examples apart from this one and only one ubu, and no ubu in kijimomo. That is balanced out with the fondness of the family for the object and their connection to their granfather through this item. There is no good answer. I advocate selling the blade to someone who can care for it because that will put it on a track of permanent care and prevention of decay. Keeping it in a family that does not collect swords means it will go to neglect again at some point. And then the future is on ebay from a grandchild or something like that that views it as some junk their great-uncle left to them and would rather get some money for a new iPhone 37.

[vajo]

So it is only polished with a window and goes back?

 

With all the costs from sending, handling and window polish it should not far from a complete polish if it would sent twice. In german we said "Milchmädchenrechnung"

[Brian]

Chris,
It is clear that Darcy hand carried it to Japan, and I expect much of the effort so far was done as a huge favour. I think this is the correct decision at this stage. There is always time.

[vajo]

So much luck for the owner. The best guys take care for the piece. Its hard for me to follow the decission.

[BIG]

Bad luck. May be George is willing to give the story to the media with the invitation that all sword owners will presume their unidentificated treasures on the Board.

 

Best

[Hoshi]

The owner must be pulled in each in every direction by a plethora of email-bound 'advice'. I understand the desire to touch base, get the blade back, summon the family members and make a safe, consensus-based decision.

 

Now, trying to put myself in the shoes of the owner: 

 

What would my grandfather want for that sword? To keep it as a family heirloom, as a remembrance for acts of bravery past, and perhaps as a symbol of what treasures awaits those who take risk in life. To be kept as a piece of inspiring family history. That is a family heirloom. But in its current state, does it really represent those things? Forgotten in an attic, rusted and left alone for decades without a glance. In its current state, it is not that family heirloom. 

 

It deserves to be restored to the highest standard, and placed behind glass alongside the medals and honors of this illustrious warrior. To become something beautiful and inspiring for generations to come. To be that Heirloom. Of course there is some risk in the polishing. Maybe the blade could become too thin in places, perhaps it's monetary value could be dented somewhat from previous ballpark estimates? But this is only a concern if one wishes to sell it as is. It's symbolic value as a heirloom can only grow in Polish. 

 

Left in its current state, it will continue to degrade and could be sold off by a descendant who does not know better, or one who knows but needs money now. It's hard to dispose of something beautiful because beauty begets respect. 

 

Now, there may be other considerations a play. Life has its lot of bad and expensive surprises, and money could be needed and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it makes for a great family story. When things got dire, Grandpa turned up one of his treasures and saved the day. Getting Japan retail price on this sword is going to be a long process and this is where people lose a lot money because they have a short time horizon. Patience is key. If that's the goal then I can only recommend Darcy as the best guy in the western hemisphere to make this happen for your family. 

 

In either case, this is a fantastic story and I'm eager to read on about its next chapter.

 

It's the sort of thing which could be turned into a short documentary. I already have a name for it: The Sword of the Beast. 

[Virginian]

Thanks to everyone for the well wishes and comments. I don't know much about swords, so any description I make will be lacking, but I'm sure Darcy can fill in some blanks.

 

Darcy and Ted did exactly as they promised and got the sword in front of the experts in Japan. I approved Ted to use a stone to try to expose the invisible hamon in front of a prominent collector. It was evidently a miraculous event to see the hamon come to life and I wish I could've been there to see the elation. At some point there was an area of about 1 inch where the hamon did not "jump out".

 

There is still no consensus about whether the hamon is interrupted, or is weak in that area. I have been told that it's possible that polishing may improve the area, but that it would be like "rolling the dice" and could even make it worse.

 

After reading articles on Darcy's blog about the interrupted hamon flaw, I understand the cause is being polished over many years, or being too aggressively polished in one area to remove a chip. Either way, I don't want to jump into another polish if that's what caused the problem in the first place.

 

The sword world is definitely different than the warriors world. Sword collector's want a flawless blade, even if it was used in battle for over 800 years. Darcy even mentioned that there are people who would possibly cut this sword down to get it through the papering process. I would rather have it in my safe than cut it down for a piece of paper, or perhaps further damage it through polishing. I'm not much of a gambler and don't play the lottery, so a roll of the dice is not for me.

 

Darcy secured an offer from a Japanese collector and I declined that offer. It may have been the best offer I will ever receive, but I'm not in a hurry to sell and won't be remorseful or ashamed if it never sells. It is a warriors sword, taken by another warrior and passed down to fellow warriors. I will listen to future offers, but the price offered will have to surpass my own attachment.

 

Thanks Again for all the kind words and thoughts.

 

Semper Fi,

George VO

[Darcy]

To clarify, I didn't want to speak on the condition issues as it is not my sword and it is not polished, so I left it to George to choose to mention that aspect of it.

 

Importantly: I did not suggest that anyone would cut the blade in half to paper it. What I said was that the value of the item needs to be understood as more than the top half as a Juyo wakizashi and the bottom half as a Juyo satsuma-age tanto. If you want to correctly value the whole in spite of an issue like this, you can start with what the market would say about it in parts and then you can attest that the whole has to be worth more as an intact and ubu blade. 

 

There is no suggestion that anyone would cut it in half now as a realistic approach to dealing with the blade.

 

This blade should paper after a polish, whether to Juyo, depends on what happens to it after a polish. But all this needs to be assessed after a polish. 

 

The importer wanted to buy it so I told George of the offer without any recommendation that he should accept it or decline it as I don't know what the value is due to the hamon. That is what brought up the illustration of two parts to be used to value it.

 

In the end what I told George was to get the blade back in his hands first, verify what I've told him, I informed Benson of the blade, and gave Bob Benson's contact info to George and suggested he seek second opinions and then do some soul searching about what is best for the blade and his family. What I don't think should happen is to put it back into a gun safe for 50 years and call it a day as I think that will kill the blade. 

 

The people that saw it in Japan reacted to it 100% positively because ubu, authentic and zaimei is something you can never take away from it, and that puts it among the most rare blades. The hamon situation needs to be dealt with by a top polisher to try to rescue what is there, and if this ends up in the wrong hands eventually after a long time then nothing good will come of that (see: ebay purchassa, and amateur polish outside of Japan).

[vajo]

A good story ends dramatic.

[Prewar70]

Darcy,

 

In my mind, possible condition issue(s) or not, something this rare and never before seen in the market, I'm guessing caused a stir.  Is it possible to describe the reactions by those who saw and examined it?  What were some of the comments and discussions?  

 

There has to be collectors in nihonto that appreciate and value rarity in some proportion to condition.  In any condition this sword is a mind blower.  How often does an opportunity like this come along to a collector at this level?  For arguments sake, let's say the hamon does skip and isn't visible in a section.  That affects price and papers, BUT, it's still an incredible find.  I would think collectors would still be tripping over themselves for a chance to put it in their collection.

 

Anyways, I'm rambling, this story and journey is just amazing to me and I feel like I've had a front row seat.  Thank you

[Ray Singer]

Hi George,

 

    I was the individual who resigned the spot with Tanobe-sensei (arranged last year), as I felt that this was something exceptionally important whose discovery should see light of day. I would really encourage you, as Darcy mentions above, to consider what is best for the preservation and survival of the sword. We may not see another ubu, signed Ko-Ichimonji tachi emerge again from outside Japan. Even having a flaw in the hamon, this is something that has a great deal of historical and artistic importance. Like a Faberge egg with a dent, this is still something very special which requires a skillful restoration team. As it is now, the sword is at risk of degrading further. Being stored in an old mounting which likely contains rust and dirt will result in further corrosion. There also appears to be a fukure (blister) in your photos with rust underneath, which will worsen without the proper repair in that area. There is no one outside of Japan can that do this work properly. You have received good advise above, but I wanted to share my thoughts as I hope the Munetada will survive and be cared for and appreciated for a long time.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Hoshi]

 

 

A good story ends dramatic. 

 

I think there is a fair chance we're still midway through. 

 

The sword world is definitely different than the warriors world

 

The customs of the sword world are strange because they come from the warrior's world. An interrupted hamon means a blade no longer suited for battle, as it would pose a great risk of breaking. This is where these 'fatal flaws' come from. It's like a rifle that is are great risk of irreversibly jamming or misfiring. In fact, one could even say these dimensions of valuation should now be completely obsolete, since they come from the Feudal times and nobody would use such a sword in war today. 

 

 

 

I'm not much of a gambler and don't play the lottery, so a roll of the dice is not for me.

 

The dice has already been rolled. The polish doesn't throw the dice, it reveals the result. If you prefer certainty, then look at the roll. If you prefer to live with the uncertainty, then keep it hidden. 

 

It may have been the best offer I will ever receive, but I'm not in a hurry to sell and won't be remorseful or ashamed if it never sells

 

 

 

There is no shame in testing the market. In the West fatal flaws are a hard sell, in Japan there is a more balanced view. Who knows what the future holds. You suggest you have time on your hand. You're probably better off investing the 10K into top-class restoration and making the blade discreetly tour the big Japanese collectors for a year or two. The alternative is to wait for offers from Western collectors, who are more timid when it comes to flaws. 

 

As Ray says, I hope it survives and gets the best care it can ever hope for. 

[Brian]

It should be polished. And it should go into a deserving collection. That's just my opinion. A polish won't cause anything that isn't there already. And a good polisher really would conserve rather than damage.
Swords like this will paper even if it does have a major flaw. Nothing really served by it sitting in a safe, and I can guarantee you that your next generation will not get the chance you have been presented with here. In a few years, it will just be another huge risk with no-one backing it that is around anymore. It can't be about the money, as there was very little when you started with this. So give it some thought and do what will keep the sword around for another few hundred years.
Darcy, Ted and Ray....you guys went waaay out of what could be expected. This says a lot, and I am sure most members here won't forget that.

[Gakusee]

Well, gentlemen, good advice all around. We just need to be mindful not to exert undue pressure on George, who is very new to all of this and let him imbibe and process the available information. It must be overwhelming and confusing and I know I would feel like that if I were plunged in a completely new area and people were telling me I had one (or one of two) of a kind items in the world.

 

Notwithstanding the above caveat, I would like firstly to salute Ray for the noble gesture and secondly to echo the advice given before and just reiterated:

 

- the sword is already in Japan and has / is being licensed to stay there indefinitely (until exported). It will be wasteful to forego the torokusho process and re-export it so quickly without utilising the available resources to enable one to make an informed decision

 

- every time it travels, there is further exposure to changes in humidity and also a chance that it might be examined inappropriately by customs officers when it leaves/enters a country, which might result in fingerprints on the blade, potential damage etc

 

- even if no one damages it in transit (and I am always paranoid this might happen, even when I transport my own swords in person and oversee the customs officials myself), as Ray points out the fact that there is residual rust corroding the blade is in itself extremely dangerous and damaging to the blade. Such corrosive oxidation must be stopped as soon as possible

 

- indeed the top restorers are in Japan (see point one above about blade already being there!!). Yes it will cost several thousand dollars and yes it will take 6-12 months of waiting but that is a worthwhile investment even if one decided not to proceed to [high] papers. But I would suggest these are done while the sword is there: 1) gentle polish 2) Tanobe sensei sayagaki 3) Hozon certificate

 

- no one is saying George needs to sell the sword immediately (despite offers made or declined) but George should be in a best position to make an informed decision (currently this is not the case due to the state of the sword)

 

- with all due respect to Benson, the sword is in the Mecca of sword restoration, its homeland, where it can be (and has been) expected be several people above Benson’s skill levels and knowledge. A top sword polisher appropriate for its state has been recommended by the top sword judge / expert in the world (Tanobe sensei). That is subtle but needs to be fully appreciated: Tanobe sensei reviews swords, gives a preliminary view, indicates if he might give sayagaki or not, recommends a polisher specifically for the blade (taking into account age, smith, state of preservation etc) and then writes sayagaki after polish.

 

George: it is simply not true that a sword needs to be perfect or in a perfect condition for it to be valued or appreciated by sword connoisseurs. In fact, Darcy recently had a very valuable signed Awataguchi tachi also with condition issues on one side, also not with the highest papers [Juyo or above] but it got recognised as pretty much unique quickly. People who know what they are doing will omit some hamon issues and the thinness or the hamon.

Value might not be $100k if there are issues with the hamon and fukure does not close well but it will still be in the tens of thousands of dollars - should you wish to sell it. But again, no one is saying you should be selling it or jumping to conclusions just yet - we are simply cautioning that the best must be done for the sword regardless of what you intend to do with it. And the best is definitely not to go back to the US or stay locked in its current state.

[Virginian]

Thank you guys for all the suggestions.

 

I want to make perfectly clear that Darcy never said that cutting the sword down should, or even would be done. He was trying to explain, in layman's terms, how crazy the papering process is.

 

Please try to picture Queen Elizabeth trying to explain to Jed Clampett about why he should use a salad fork. Darcy is at the peak of his profession and I owe him a debt of gratitude. I completely trust his opinion, but even he said he wasn't sure if polishing would improve the value and that it might even reduce it.

 

As for turning down an offer, I don't sell things for their value, I sell them for their value to me. Awhile back a friend of mine saw a Pep Boys oil jug in one of my barns and said he wanted it for his man cave and offered $20. It was worth less than that to me, so I sold it to him. Turns out it was from 1934 and worth a couple hundred bucks. My friend offered to give it back, but I was happy with the deal. Will the price I accept for the sword be fair? Maybe not, but it'll sell for its value to me and not what the market recommends.

 

Darcy has been a true gentleman at every turn. He has kept me in the loop during the process and even offered to send pictures of the blade to confirm the condition. I told him that I didn't need pictures to believe him and that I wouldn't know what I was looking at anyway. He also recommended getting a second opinion, which I doubt I will seek out. He and Ted have seen the condition, in addition to some of the top collector's in the world and no one knows what to expect from further polishing.

 

A professional polish by the top guy in Japan may cost as much as 9k (probably less), and it might hurt the value. Like Forrest Gump said "life is like a box of chocolates...you never know what you're going to get". Basically, I'm refusing to bite the chocolate to see what's inside.

 

I'm still open to suggestions, but ultimately I have to lean towards sentimental value and my gut.

 

Thanks guys,

George VO