Captured WWII Sword

[Virginian]

Here are some more pictures. I hope they help with identification.

While it's fun to think of the possibilities of having a rare sword, I have no delusions of such. This sword doesn't look that old to me, and certainly not 700 or 800 years old.

George VO

[Gakusee]

George

A few things - good swords tend to be cared for and if you were to see a top sword preserved properly you would think it was made yesterday. Yours is out of polish and the details are not visible but I think worthwhile for a polisher to open an window or two.

 

Can you strip the blade as attached and measure the distances between the notches as highlighted in the images of two Munetada swords below, one of which seems to have a somewhat similar “pheasant thigh” tang to yours?

Is there a steep narrowing from the tang of the sword where the sharp edge stars towards the bottom quarter of the blade up towards the tip (something called funbari and sign of old Koto tachi)?

 

 

Your photos need to be closer and with better light but again - due to polish we might struggle to discern forging style details.

 

Below is a list of Munetada smiths (excluding Gendaito smiths) from the Index by Markus Sesko - you will see they do tend to be old guys:

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Jōryaku (承暦, 1077-1081), Yamashiro – “Munetada” (宗忠), according to tradition the son of Sanjō Munetoshi (宗利)

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Kenryaku (建暦, 1211-1213), Bizen – “Munetada” (宗忠), Ko-Ichimonji school, according to tradition the son of Muneyoshi (宗吉), only few works are extant by Munetada, we know a jūyō-bunkazai and two jūyō-bijutsuhin blades, the former is slender, has funbari, a deep sori, and a ko-kissaki, the kitae is itame with a hint of midare-utsuri,

the hamon appears along the central blade section as regular ko-chōji, the monouchi area bases on suguha with ko-nie, the bōshiis sugu with a round kaeri, his blades have altogether a slender and elegant tachi-sugata and tend somewhat to nie, that

means they show ko-nie and occasionally also kinsuji, jōjō-saku ◎

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Tenpuku (天福, 1233-1234), Bizen – “Munetada” (宗忠), Fukuoka-Ichimonji school,

according to tradition the son of Yorimune (依宗)

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Shōgen (正元, 1259-1260), Bizen – “Munetada” (宗忠), Fukuoka-Ichimonji school, according to tradition der student of Yoshiie (吉家)

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Einin (永仁, 1293-1299), Satsuma – “Naminohira Munetada” (波平宗忠), Naminohira school, hoso-suguha, ko-gunome

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Einin (永仁, 1293-1299), Yamato/Tango – “Munetada” (宗忠), “Miyatsu no Shō-jū

Munetada” (宮津荘住宗忠), according to tradition the younger brother of a not further specified Masatsune (正恒), he moved later to Miyatsu (宮津) in Tango province, nickname Miyatsu-Nyūdō (宮津入道), masame in combination with a ko-midare with ashi, some sources date him also into the Kenmu era (建武, 1334-1338)

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Tenbun (天文, 1532-1555), Yamato – “Washū-jū Munetada” (和州住宗忠)

 

MUNETADA (宗忠), Tokuji (徳治, 1306-1308), Bitchū – “Munetada” (宗忠), Aoe school

[Virginian]

I apologize for not understanding exactly what you're looking for. I can't tell where the notch in your example photo starts, so I took a picture from the tip end of the blade and hopefully you can see the distance you're looking for.

 

The blade I have has a groove running the length of the blade and I don't see that on other examples. I think I have a completely different style, made much later.

 

I also found a defect in the blade that almost looks like a crack. It doesn't go through to the other side, but I'm posting a picture of it.

Thanks, George VO

[Virginian]

I apologize for not understanding exactly what you're looking for. I can't tell where the notch in your example photo starts, so I took a picture from the tip end of the blade and hopefully you can see the distance you're looking for.

 

The blade I have has a groove running the length of the blade and I don't see that on other examples. I think I have a completely different style, made much later.

 

I also found a defect in the blade that almost looks like a crack. It doesn't go through to the other side, but I'm posting a picture of it.

Thanks, George VO

[Gakusee]

George, I would be interested in what the others have to say but so far, from the new photos:

 

- do not overthink the grooves (bohi) as they might be added later (atobori) in the life of the blade;

 

- you have added interesting photos of the top of the nakago into the blade (see how the steel narrows from the rusted part /tang into the semi polished blade surface?) which demonstrate the blade has been polished many times over its life - again usually an indicator of an older blade. Similarly where the notches should be for the start of the cutting edge (called hamachi for cutting edge and munemachi for the blunt back/top of blade) separating it from the badle portion (the tang) these are almost not visible as the polishers over time have abraded away steel to keep the blade polished;

 

- also, importantly, look at the overall blade shape. The deepest curve is in the bottom one third (starting from the tang) which is called koshizori and is also often an indicator of old Bizen blades or Kamakura-period blades. The tip of the blade, well, is between a small tip (kokissaki) and medium tip (chukissaki) tending towards kokissaki perhaps. Again tends to indicate an older form.

 

- almost forgot to add a very important observation: look at the the first 15 cm from the hamachi / blade start notches above the tang towards the pointed tip/kissaki if the blade. Notice the rapid narrowing of the width of the blade as it approaches the midsection but definitely before it reaches the midsection. That rapid narrowing is called funbari or fumbari and is also usually an indicator of Koto period swords

 

- what you are showing as a defect seems to be fukure (blister) I think, which has opened through time/polishes but these can be repaired carefully by a qualified polisher. They can be plugged in, and if skilfully done, are barely visible. Of course, they detract from value but on a Koto blade that has been used and polished many times that is excusable.

 

- in the full length shot of the blade with the meter I think I see one area of choji hamon (around hamachi and up 10-15cm)

 

All the indicators are there of good age on the blade, even though the length is not too big for the time (you have misaligned the meter but I think the blade length / nagasa is around 67-68cm) but could have been made as a kodachi. But there are shorter blades made by the Ichimonji Munetada and the other Bizen / Aoe smiths.

 

I strongly urge you to oil it several times and remove the oil with soft Kleenex paper and oil again and then several times. No touching with bare hands of the blade. Nothing done on the tang/nakago but that is the only area you could touch with bare hands

 

I am no expert. Far from it: I am just a beginner in this life long path of fascination with Japanese swords and arms. But from my beginner’s eyes you have a sufficiently, interestingly old blade bearing the hallmarks of a Kamakura period sword with what seems like a well preserved, aged tang with a mei that strongly resembles the published references. If I were you, I would invest in a professional polish but before you do that - approach perhaps Ted Tenold and speak with him and ask for a window and his opinion. Please ask some of the more experienced people in your area as you might have something special.

[Virginian]

Michael,

 Thank you again for taking the time to share your knowledge and give your opinion. I'll wait to see if other experts weigh in. Maybe people aren't seeing the post because it's in the wrong section. If others don't chime in, maybe I'll start a new thread in the proper location. I will oil the blade more, as you suggested, but I don't think I'll be sending it off for polishing/restoration in the near future. If I can determine the exact history of the blade, I will probably look towards selling it. If this sword is truly special, it belongs with someone who will restore and appreciate it. I am a gun guy and can't see myself taking up another hobby... especially one so expensive! Thanks again for your time.

 

Take care,

George VO   

[Gakusee]

This is indeed in the wrong section as this section is usually associated with gunto and gendaito, and probably less frequented by the Koto guys. However, there have been readings by a lot of the other members.

 

I suggest you mention where you live and the NMB establishes who lives nearest to you, where the local sword clubs are and where the next shinsa / sword show is. Best to inspect in hand. Before you do anything to it, I do suggest you speak with someone knowledgable who can inspect it in hand and probably “open an window” with T Tenold and B Benson (this means they look at it, assess it, perhaps polish a short section so that you can assess the jihada and hamon to really see if this looks/feels like old steel).

[Virginian]

Thank you Michael. I live in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, near Harrisonburg. My wife and I do some traveling in our motorhome and we are planning a trip out west around the end of April, or early May. I could easily plan a trip to visit an expert with the sword. I'm not familiar with the names you mentioned, but I'll look into them. I did a search on Tenold in the member list and came up empty. I also had a couple guys reach out to me with private messages back in December when I first posted pictures; I'll probably reach out to those guys again.

 

I truly appreciate all the information and feedback provided on this site. I am blown away by the knowledge displayed here. I realize that the more experts that weigh in on the origin of the blade, the more likely it is that the mystery will be solved. I'm starting to see how you guys become interested in the art.

 

I still have the much more substantial sword that looks a lot more impressive than this one. I have not yet removed the handle on that one, but now I'm considering it.

 

Thanks,

George VO  

[Gakusee]

Do not rush into it, George, as you might come to regret hasty decisions. Especially if this is a family heirloom associated with your eminent grandfather.

This “smaller” blade might turn out to be much more valuable than the big one (caveated by me saying that we have not saying the bigger blade).

 

Ted Tenold : http://www.legacyswords.com/about.html

[PNSSHOGUN]

I have to agree, do not sell off your valuable family heirlooms, invest in them so future generations of the family can treasure them as well.

[Virginian]

Thanks Michael and John for the great advice. I would recommend the same thing to most people, but I'm a little different. My mother was widowed over a year ago and she's been renting an early 1900's house that isn't suitable for her age. We are in the process of building her a small house on our property and could use any money we can get through the sale of "extra stuff". As the daughter-in-law of the General, I'm sure he'd be happy that his relics could go towards helping her.

 

I have 3 kids that will already be receiving plenty of heirlooms from our Marine history. These swords were brought back from Japan by the General 75 years ago and since then they have sat in a closet, or under a bed and haven't been enjoyed by anyone. I am a Mountain Man/Hillbilly that lives in the "sticks" and I have as much use for these items as I would a Ferrari. It would be like the Mona Lisa sitting in a cabin closet and never seen by the outside world. Years ago I looked into trying to find the family of the sword owner, but was told not to do it. It would bring me great joy to see it in a collection, or museum where it could be viewed and enjoyed by many.

 

Thanks,

George VO

[Darcy]

Michael has given a lot of good information. The sword has a lot of indications of being from the mid 1200s. I'm not sure if the signature is OK, but sometimes a blade of that age has a signature added later to try to match what it looks like. 

 

In the current condition it's difficult to assess. 

 

You need to be careful with this because it is a potentially very valuable thing ($100,000+) if it checks out as Ichimonji Munetada. It also could be a fake signature but if it checks out as an original size Kamakura blade it will still be worth tens of thousands. Those are market/retail prices and achieving them takes time and work.

 

People will try to shark you out of it and before making any decisions about what your end goals are with the blade. 

 

Something like this needs a close look in hand. If it passes muster at that point then it's worthwhile to bring to Japan and have top experts handle the restoration there. 

 

I can bring it to Japan for you for no charge and have Tanobe Michihiro, the retired head judge at the NBTHK, examine it and give his commentary. You should do this before making any decisions about the future of the blade.

 

Where it is right now is speculative, the signature looks a bit sloppy but there are not a lot of examples of these old signatures and a lot of swordsmiths were illiterate and learned only how to sign their names from priests. As such the oldest signatures look quite rustic and charming, while others are clearly very sophisticated in the same era. 

 

Because this one has what looks like to be a very old shape to the tang as Michael pointed out, it means you have to hold back a bit on judging the signature. The reason for this is that many old smiths used names over a number of generations, and not many examples exist now. But they tend to be samplings from a lineage of smiths so there are changes over time. But it is possible to examine the condition of a tang and determine the age, and whether or not the signature comes from the same time of manufacture or is a later addition. That is the first step to analyzing whether or not the signature is authentic. If it fails that test it fails all tests, if it passes that test then the information is carried into the next test which is the style and construction of the signature itself.

 

If the signature is not authentic it is a minor operation to remove it and a sword like this with its shape and in particular that of the nakago, is still likely going to turn up great work from an old period.

 

You sound like a good individual and you need to be very careful because old blades like this are treasures that can make other people a bit blind to ethical behavior. In those cases they can and will do what is necessary to get you out of the blade and to add it to their collection at minimal cost to themselves. It can be hard for good people to recognize that other people don't always act with honor. So that is my warning to you. 

 

I recently brought a general's sword that was captured in Bali by the Australians and held by the grandchild back to Japan and walked through this process for the owner and you should probably speak with him briefly to understand how it can go. In that case the signature of Izumi no Kami Kanesada was verified on the sword (a great master smith from 500 years ago) and the top collector in the world bought the blade from the owner after that. 

 

It's a bit hard to tell from the quality of the pictures but as Michael pointed out, there are a lot of highlights that turn up positive in this and so it needs to be treated conservatively. That means while we should remain skeptical about authenticity always, it should be handled and decisions made as if it is completely authentic, until the questions are all answered. A lot of the time it's possible to dismiss things at face value as there are a lot of clear recent period fakes out there and a conservative stance is not needed. I think here you should tread slow and carefully. 

 

You can ask anyone here about me and if you want, contact me via my website if you'd like me to authenticate the blade for you in Japan.

[Jean]

That’s very generous of you Darcy and anyone on this Forum can vouch for you, beginning by me.

[Gakusee]

George

If I were you I would take up Darcy’s offer. He has the right knowledge and connections to help you without trying to buy the blade on the cheap. Actually, the blade should remain yours, you should make your decision well informed after you have had it checked. As I warned you, it could be very valuable.

 

I still think a small window should be opened so that one can figure out if this is Ichimonji Munetada or Aoe Munetada (both of them forged in the 13 century. That will enable the experts also figure out the swordsmith.

[raynor]

George,

 

Looks like your grandfather might have brought another gift besides fighting for our freedom from tyranny. Hope it turns out great!

 

I am like you much a novice in this field but I have read some of Darcy's posts and his excellent website, I don't think you can easily find someone as qualified and with honest intentions to help you out.

[Stephen]

3rd the vouch for Darcy. Youll be well taken care of under his wing and guidance.

[b.hennick]

+1

[Mark]

George

 

If you are going west at the end of April stop by the Chicago Japanese Sword Show  (info at chicagoswordshow.com). There will be several experts at the show. The NBTHK -American Branch will have a display/lecture/discussion on saturday. You could get a few good opinions in one place.  I also know Darcy and he is very reliable.

[Virginian]

Thank you very much Darcy and all others kind enough to offer your knowledge and words of encouragement. This group is truly impressive and welcoming. The process ahead seems pretty intimidating and I'm sure I wouldn't even attempt it without your help and guidance. I want to make sure this sword gets the respect and due diligence it deserves.

 

It's hard for me to understand that in a culture so full of integrity as the Japanese that maybe someone faked signatures, but I guess we all have the 2%. I just can't see how one would've benefitted from such an act long ago. I know for a fact that the sword has not received any care or attention for the past 75 years, so I think it's time for it to be appreciated. Thanks again to everyone involved in this effort.

 

Take care,

George VO

[Bruce Pennington]

George,

 

The temptation was in $$$. A blade made by a famous, respected smith would sell for more money than one made by an average or below average smith. So the down-and-out smith is tempted (and sometimes gave in) to fake the famous name on his work, selling it for more money than his own name would earn.

 

The Japanese created the NTHK organization to try to inspect signatures for legitimacy.

[PNSSHOGUN]

George I hope you take Darcy's remarkable & generous offer very seriously, you will be in excellent hands and help preserve a potentially important and valuable piece of history spanning over 800 years.

[Virginian]

I've already sent Darcy an email to his website address to discuss his kind offer.

Thanks, George VO

[Stephen]

It wasnt all greed, shoguns and daimyos ordered blades made with big names, it was more of a ego game.  

[brannow]

The sword does look like it has pretty good potential.  The Baltimore Antique arms show is next weekend and if your in the area of Timonium MD bring it by.  I would be happy to have a look at it but I agree ultimately it would have to go to Japan.

[Brian]

Before you can decide what you are going to do with it, you need to know exactly what you have.
The reasons for gimei were many. Just check out the section on it in the FAQ at http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/faq.html
That said...as mentioned by Darcy, even if gimei it could be significant. It is not all about value, but about identifying and preserving culturally significant items.
You have a fantastic offer by Darcy, someone who will steer you right, and has the knowledge and experience to properly evaluate it. You also have a number of shows and people that can look at it.
Info first...then think what to do with it. Ultimately, Darcy's offer is one you should not pass up. Good luck, and please keep us updated.

[Blazeaglory]

It wasnt all greed, shoguns and daimyos ordered blades made with big names, it was more of a ego game.  

 

You beat me to it!

[Darcy]

People probably want to hear some news ... I have the blade in Tokyo now and I am 100% sure that this is a late Heian / early Kamakura blade. The curve is great the nakago is perfect. I showed the blade at a dealer today and a Japanese collector was in there as well, when the nakago came out of the tsuka it got a couple of gasps because of the kijimomo shape. Japanese collector in particular smiled at me and remarked on it. 

 

The hamon is hard to make out in the current state but it's there. The shape is everything it should be and there is only one ubu blade by this smith and that blade is Juyo Bunkazai. 

 

The problem is that it is a bit thin now and polish will have to deal with the defects caused by rusting. 

 

I think the mei is legitimate and I don't see any reason to doubt it offhand.

 

What's more the saya and tsuka are Tensho koshirae (Muromachi period) and worth fixing up and preserving. The menuki were lost and the fuchigashira were replaced in the Edo period and appear to be Yoshioka school and high quality. 

 

The tsuba is not high quality and my theory is that this blade was rushed into service, it had a nicer tsuba which was set aside when the owner went to war and a serviceable one put in place. Not enough time to redo the tsuka lead to the good one being used. Probably when it was taken back the menuki were removed and used as ornaments or cufflinks at some point, as they were probably something like goto shishi.

 

I will show the blade to Tanobe sensei tomorrow. 

 

Since there is only one ubu blade by Ko-Ichimonji Munetada if this is confirmed it is a major discovery. It is just hope if it will polish out OK, about 40% of the hamon is visible and because of the rust defects it's a bit hard to know where there is choji and where it is wishful thinking. As Ko-Ichimonji it should be a ko-choji based hamon so will see more soon. 

 

It's nice to be involved and the board should be too, especially hats off to the owner for submitting it and Michael pounding the table, as the blade appears to be an important treasure. Even if it polishes out weak, you cannot take away an ubu early Kamakura nakago.

[Brian]

Wow, that is amazing to hear the owner followed advice, and the speed that Darcy was able to get it to Japan.
I wish everyone luck. It is great to be able to be a very small part of this and really hats off to both Darcy and to George for trusting advice and doing the right thing.
Really looking forward to hearing more.

[zook]

This is an awesome thread ...awesome story!  - great stuff   

[Dave R]

 Wow, just wow! I am now awaiting the next instalment .