Oh Dear I've Discovered Tosogu

[Brian]

There is a lot of carved detail there. Bark, feathers etc. Don't do anything until you get advice from a proper authority.

[DRDave]

The detail on the back, the bird, etc. is nice; but the scale bothers me.  The size of the bird just seems exaggerated.  Curious if anyone has seen other tsuba similar to this.

[Soshin]

Ben,

 

This is problem trying to judge something on only one photo as I noted in my first post.  From seeing the additional photos it is a modern (Meiji Period and later) Japanese tsuba likely casted in brass and then later hand detailed and was never intended to be mounted on a sword.  By the time this tsuba was made it was only at best decorative art.  I never been really interested in these type of tsuba.         

[Alex A]

Btw - it was described as a presentation tsuba because of the size. 

 

Im reminded of another discussion a few years ago about a similar tsuba, although that showed porosity defects.

 

That also was suggested to be a "presentation" or "tourist" tsuba.

 

The details are too sharp to dismiss it as a modern copy.

 

For me, they come with a ?, that makes other folk go ?, when its time to sell, easier stuff to collect.

[Peter Bleed]

Ben,

Thank you for an interesting and useful discussion You have got us looking at good detail and listening to real experts. All that is good, BUT this tsuba looks consistently bad to me. I suppose some of the ishime might have been hand applied, but the katakiri all looks suspicious to me, and then there is the rounded edges of the seppa-dai....

Peter

[FletchSan]

Some design similarities with this Masayoshi with the oversized fish on the bottom right corner.

 

https://www.mfa.org/collections/object/tsuba-with-design-of-fish-shellfish-and-crustacea-10039

 

Assume this one if genuine would be a Meiji era later Masayoshi if one existed.

[DRDave]

Some design similarities with this Masayoshi with the oversized fish on the bottom right corner.

 

Indeed, thanks Ben.  I'm learning.  

[Bazza]

Some design similarities with this Masayoshi with the oversized fish on the bottom right corner.

 

https://www.mfa.org/collections/object/tsuba-with-design-of-fish-shellfish-and-crustacea-10039

 

Assume this one if genuine would be a Meiji era later Masayoshi if one existed.

One of these fish appears to be saying FUGU...

 

BaZZa.

[FletchSan]

I found this thread from 2013 very helpful as my tsuba was described as a Kenjo tsuba and explains why it wasn’t made to be mounted.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/11102-plz-define-shiremono-hamamono-and-presentation-tsuba/

[Ford Hallam]

Apologies for my recent absence,  needs must when the Devil drives...

 

From what I can see this is a perfectly genuine piece of Meiji period export ware.

 

The workmanship is fairly good and the materials are decent quality.

As has been noted, the base plate appears to have been cast, but only the basic form. It has been well worked and properly finished. It may be brass or possibly sentoku, which in this period was very popular as 'the new thing' . Sentoku had to be cast as it can't be forged. If it is sentoku the original patina would have been more golden ochre with a degree of crystalline speckling visible in the polished areas.

 

The kata-kiri work on the back is, to my eyes, the finest part of the piece. I doubt very much that anyone in Japan today could match that degree of fluency and elegance in this technique.

 

The bird on the front, is perhaps a bit big and maybe a little awkward but the actual detailing is neat and confidant. The blossom inlays are very neatly done too and the modelling and texturing of the branches is perfectly competent.

 

All of this, with regard to the workmanship, suggests a maker who was well trained and experienced in the classical tradition and while probably not themselves an actual tsuba-shi they would have trained under those who were the last of the line.

 

It's clearly not a tsuba in the pure definition of the term but was made for the tourist market and customers who wouldn't have known any better.

Similarly the 'mei' is in all likelihood simply a name added to give the buyer the the added reassurance they were buying 'real art'.

 

So that's my take on it.

 

regards to all,

 

Ford

[FletchSan]

Thanks so much Ford, really appreciate your feedback on my Tsuba and glad to see it's at least a genuine Meiji era piece.

 

I've decided to keep it - I do really like it and I guess that's the main thing and understand it may not be as collectible to tsuba enthusiasts given the period and market it was intended for.

 

Not sure it adds anything - though it came in two boxes which have a stamp.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[Brian]

Japanese metalwork is art...I would have kept this too. Better than one of the usual bronze vases that I enjoy, and shows far more skill. Good choice.

[Fred Geyer]

Ford,

 

Love you man!!! you are a greatest artist of today that I know of  !!!! , but you cant call it a genuine piece as it is not a tsuba it is just "metal Art" it was never made to mount on a sword so it cant be a tsuba.... I fully understand how you noted it above and it was correct …,sort of.  But for the 5 of us on this site "that I know of" who study the heck out of tosogu. I feel that we have to define tosogu or metal art I feel this can head to a really bad way … what's next, well this is great Chinese reproduction ????

 

Again Ford sorry but I feel very strong on this, we all know when swords became prohibited ...the last day of a tsuba!    

 

Fred        

[Fred Geyer]

Ford,

 

Sorry I got half way down down your responce and went ot REPLY !!

 

Fred  

[lotus]

As you can see from selected quotes by Ford, he does not call it a real tsuba but rather Meiji period export ware.
 

From what I can see this is a perfectly genuine piece of Meiji period export ware.
 
It's clearly not a tsuba in the pure definition of the term

[Bob M.]

Could we say tsuba shaped plaque ?

[Brian]

Let's not go down this one again guys, we have been here many times. Maybe a different thread.
 

[Pete Klein]

[FletchSan]

I received the original description which was taken from the dealer in Japan in the 80s. Just for interest, not claiming it’s anything other than what has been determined in this discussion

 

*Genuine Japanese Shakudo Tsuba dates to 1843

*Tsuba Plum Blossom & Sparrow Kenjo Tsuba

*(Presentation Formal Tsuba)

*Sumi iri kaku gata Ishiguro school Shakudo

*Flowering plum tree with a sparrow flying, is a favourite subject of this school.

 

*The old gnarled branch, plum blossoms flowering the detail on the actual flowers is exquisite, gold tipped stamen. Silver colour Plum flower buds in various stages of opening, so realistic.

*The sparrow in full flight with head turned (possibly solid gold)

 

*Reverse: A rocky outcrop, wild lily growing, hand carved in strong definition.

*Calligraphy, beautifully hand chiselled right hand side of the nakago ana reading 69 years old made

*Left hand side: Masayoshi

*Ishigoro Masayoshi (1774 to 1862)

*A student of the Ishiguro School's founder, Ishiguro Masatsune I (1760 to 1828)

*Masayoshi later worked as a retainer for the Shimazu daimyō at their Edo compound.

 

*Takabori high relief carving), Hirabori (low relief carving) Shakudo, Shibuichi, Ishime ji background.*

*Signed: Masayoshi, made at 69 years old

*Edo Period

 

*Kenjo meaning Presentation. The gift to a superior or an equal

*Kenjo Tsuba were often gifted from one Daimyo to another Daimyo.

*In the late Edo period they were often gifted by wealthy merchants to Daimyo until as late as 1870 when the Daimyo titles were abolished.

*Dimensions: 10cm x 9.1cm x.5cm 384 grams

[Pete Klein]

Listen to Muttly again to get my opinion.

[FletchSan]

A nice little animated gif of my Meiji era Japanese art object that shows the textures and detail

 

 

[FletchSan]

.. and the reverse

[Peter Bleed]

It is thoughtful discussions like this that make the NMB worthwhile.They also make me glad NOT to be a serious kodogu collector!

Thank you all!

Peter

[Tanto54]

On sale on Yahoo Japan currently for $12.....

 

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/g321828715

[kissakai]

Shame no buy it now price

Be interesting to see the final price

[lotus]

I bet it goes pretty high, the pics are pretty nice...

[Dojikiri]

Hi Guys,

With regard to a seppa-dai with an irregular surface, it is best not to be too dogmatic. A few

years ago I purchased a tsuba with a seppa-dai like that, it had large snail motif, and was clearly never intended for mounting, it had subsequently had hitsuana (Ugh!) cut and then been mounted. It had clearly been made for an exhibition but had obviously caught the eye of a samurai who acquired it. It is high quality work signed 'Gassan', I think it is probably the genuine work of Matsuo Gassan.

 

Alan

[parfaitelumiere]

My first thougt when I saw it was "nice engraving on cast stuff", makes me think about something I own, often see, a eagle or falcon on a pine branch, and two plovers on bottom, quite rough finish on mine, but it also makes me think about some meiji dragon, snake and other well made brass tsuba.
Then I saw the first comments, starting to think, "ok I was wrong, but really had a meiji or taisho taste, wouldn't think it was modern poor thing", weird.

[parfaitelumiere]

I read page 2, saw the yahoo link, and watched details of both tsuba.
Unless the tsuba on sale on yahoo is exactly yours, and it's not, it would explain why the carving details are identical.
But it's not, because some casting defect on seppa dai on reverse side are different.
The filing lines, engraving, and pinching are strictly identical, and this is impossible, even the ishimei pinching is identical, that is impossible, unless both tsuba would have been high precision casts.

[Pete Klein]

I bet these are modern and quite possibly made in China.