Tosho Tsuba. Motif? Age?

[andreYes]

Hi,

 

Please, help me with this tosho style tsuba. Diameter is 7.6 cm, thickness - 3 mm.

 

1. Is it possible to tell something about its age basing on the photos? Does the shape of kozuka hitsu ana could be a sign in this case?

 

2. I'm not sure about motif: it could be a kukurizaru, but it seems to me that it is moon and star on the bottom, and 3 star mon on top.

 

 

[lotus]

Yes, the elongated hitsu ana could be an indicator of a pre-Edo time period. Also, 3 mm is fairly thin and could also be an indicator of an earlier piece.

 

Sometimes the nature of the iron can help with aging so maybe someone with more experience will chime in on that. It is hard for me to tell on that aspect.

[kissakai]

Is the top sukashi a sandbar? I forget the correct term

I also expect the lower one to be astrological

Patrick has given some good indicators so now someone who is better with old iron

[andreYes]

You mean the suhama, Grev? I thought about it, but it's usually more space between the "ears of Mikey Mouse", I think

[MauroP]

Hi, the tsuba below is described as: "karakusa-mon suhama sukashi tsuba".

So "suhama ni mizutama" could be an adeguate description of your tsuba.

[Bugyotsuji]

Kasane mitsu-boshi? 重ね三つ星

https://kamon-db.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/kasanemitsuboshi-640x640.jpg

[andreYes]

Thank you for good ideas!

Mauro, great reference piece! No information about its age?

Piers, thank you for the picture, never seen a kasane style of a three star kamon! Interesting site/databese - I should study it deeply

 

So, the description could be "suhama ni mizutama" or "kasane mitsu-boshi ni tsukiboshi". I doubt whether we'll know, what was the tsubako's thoughts

 

The question is its age...  As Patrick said, some signs indicates, that it could be a Ko-Tosho thing, but the main point is the quality of iron and patina, I suppose. Maybe someone with a good experience with an old iron could give his opinion, please? If it really possible to make any conclusions just by photo...

[ROKUJURO]

Andrey,

the thickness of the plate, the state of corrosion (or the lack of it), and the shape of the rim (almost KAKU MIMI in places) could be indicators for a later manufacture in my eyes, so probably not KO-TOSHO, but early EDO JIDAI.  

[andreYes]

Thank you, Jean!

[seattle1]

Hello:

 To my eye it appears to be a mid Muromachi ko-tosho unless the mimi is reduced. The design, while similar to the suhama mon is more likely a cluster of stars and all the devices together being an unusual representation of the san-ko (three sources of light) design. The kodzuka-hitsu is confirmatory to a pre-Edo piece.

 Arnold F.

[andreYes]

Arnold, thank you for your opinion!

Didn't know about san-ko (三光, right?) design before, very interesting!

[Bugyotsuji]

Three lights. Nor did I, but this concept makes sense.

I hesitated to say 日月 jitsu-getsu (sun and moon) for the lower holes because of the extreme size difference.

[andreYes]

Yes, the lower part is probabli tsuki-boshi (月星) - moon and star, I think...

 

I've found an interesting explanation of the san-ko design in the description of an Richard Turner's tsuba in his old blog here

[FlorianB]

The overall appearance, the elongiated hitsu-ana and irregularities in the sukashi (later ones are more exactly made) make me believe it must be Ko-Tosho, probably late Muromachi.

Size and thickness of about 3 mm could be found on similar specimen, too.

The lower elements could also be interpreted as a tumbler or kukurizaru frequently found on this kind of Tsuba. Early kukurizaru show a small circle connected with a kidney-shaped form, later ones just two circles of different sizes.

Found this at the V&A Museum:

 

But moon and star work in Yours as well - as You like it.

 

Very nice piece!

 

Florian

[andreYes]

Thank you, Florian! 

 

Now I remember this tsuba from V&A Museum, I saw it several years ago

 

I found the photo, I've made:   

[rkg]

Interesting - that sure looks like a kozuka ana - I wonder why they chose to display what appears to be the back side of that particular tsuba...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

  On 12/17/2018 at 7:56 PM, andreYes said:

Thank you, Florian! 

 

Now I remember this tsuba from V&A Museum, I saw it several years ago

 

I found the photo, I've made:    IMG_7271.JPG

[andreYes]

You are right! I didn't notice it before, but looking at the photos from the museum now, I see that many tsuba are placed the ura side out. That's strange!

 

    

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Possibly an example of ‘Ignorance is Bliss’.

[FlorianB]

More likely nothing changed in the V&A since Mr. B. W. Robinson's days in the 1960ies ...

 

Florian