Unrecorded? Looking for comparison Mei.

[Guido]

Wakayama and Haynes list a "Noriaki", but it doesn't seem to be the guy I'm looking for; in any case, I'm looking for Mei samples to possibly exclude the one mentioned above. Here's "my" Mei:

[Curran]

The Norisuke grandson signed Yoshisuke, though his artname was Noriaki. I did not know there even was an entry in Haynes under 'Noriaki' for Yoshisuke. If not the Norisuke grandson, then your tsuba smith is probably unrecorded.

 

I went through the Norisuke book and could not find an alternate reference mei for Noriaki, though Wakayama states in his Owari tsuba lecture that he has seen a tsuba by Yoshisuke signed "Iwata Noriaki saku".

 

From memory, it was Noriaki's widow who provided the NBTHK with the remaining Norisuke family books and tools around 1970 or 1971. If a reference example exists for Noriaki, they would have it.

 

Yoshitsuke looks to have used the same or similar chisels for signing as the shodai and nidai Norisuke. Your signature looks much finer than his Yoshisuke signatures.

[Guido]

Curran, thanks a lot for your input - I think I now can rule out the Noriaki listed, since the Iwata school worked in iron, even copying the "old masters". This Noriaki is purely Kinko, probably associated to Shonai Ikkin. I got some more material and will write up on it, but for now just some quick pictures:

[Curran]

Dear Guido,

 

Nice little tsuba. Most certainly not typical Norisuke work!

 

Yes, you are probably on the right track pursuing the Ikkin line or that general area. That is not a very strong area for me, and I have been trying to increase my library and familiarity with work from it. Nice little tsuba.

 

Many of the late Edo guys jumped schools several times and sometimes jumped names with it. See the "Toshitsugu" tsuba example at http://www.tetsugendo.com/

Sometimes I wonder if a name or two got dropped along the way. During the course of tracking down an unusual work recently, I came across one fellow who had changed his name about 13 times. It is possible your tsuba is either a transition name of a student, or just an unknown student.

[Brian]

I really like that tsuba very much too. Please post if you do get any further info on it.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

I'd like to add my 2 yens worth also

 

This particular tsuba appears to be to very strongly reminiscent of later Goto Ichijo work. The shape of the guard, the very particular way in which the rim is upset, even down to the actual kogai hitsu. The kata-kiri and hira-zogan accents are typical also.

 

I don't get the feeling this is after any of Ichijo's followers though, rather the direct influence of Ichijo.

 

Hashimoto Isshi, Funada Ikkin, Nakagawa Issho, Wada Isshin et al seemed to have developed their own expression in a way that makes it slightly distinct from their teacher's influence.

 

I'm actually a big fan of this groups work. I love the combination of the bold and expressive kata-kiri, the subtle stone-like textured grounds and the sensitive working of the rims.

[Bungo]

I'd like to add my 2 yens worth also

 

This particular tsuba appears to be to very strongly reminiscent of later Goto Ichijo work. The shape of the guard, the very particular way in which the rim is upset, even down to the actual kogai hitsu. The kata-kiri and hira-zogan accents are typical also.

 

I don't get the feeling this is after any of Ichijo's followers though, rather the direct influence of Ichijo.

 

Hashimoto Isshi, Funada Ikkin, Nakagawa Issho, Wada Isshin et al seemed to have developed their own expression in a way that makes it slightly distinct from their teacher's influence.

 

I'm actually a big fan of this groups work. I love the combination of the bold and expressive kata-kiri, the subtle stone-like textured grounds and the sensitive working of the rims.

 

example of ichijo style ( koz done in painting style ).........

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3151

 

 

milt

[docliss]

Guido's tsuba is, indeed, very beautiful. I agree with Ford that the work is reminiscent of that of Ichijo Goto; the quality of the katakiri-bori is quite outstanding, and the balance of the design on the aoie-gata plate - rogin or shibuichi? - shows great skill. (Am I, perhaps, being a bit picky when I criticise the trailing stem on the bottom, left-hand segment of the ura surface?)

 

To me it suggests Kano Natsuo work, presumably by one of his many students. But realising that most of their work was signed as by Natsuo, and not knowing who Noriaki was, I am afraid this posting is of very little help!

 

Regards, John L.

[Brian]

Dr L.

 

It is precisely that trailing stem that has me captivated by it. I think because it is so unexpected and breaks the perfection of the subject matter, gives it a natural feel to me. I am sure the artist was saying something with it, but won't get too philosophical

The whole tsuba certainly is striking though, isn't it? Nice purchase Guido..I'm jealous again

 

Brian

[Guido]

- rogin or shibuichi? -

Good question. It was sold to me as Shibuichi - and that's how it looks to me - but the NBTHK papers say Rogin.

 

I'm not along far enough yet in my studies of Tosogu, and therefore would like to know if there are any telltale signs, or is the distinction arbitrary?

Am I, perhaps, being a bit picky when I criticise the trailing stem on the bottom, left-hand segment of the ura surface?

Quite frankly, at first I had no idea about what you and Brian talked.

 

I found this tsuba very hard to photograph, especially the Katakiri-bori. I experimented a little with the lighting and angle, and thought that my photos showed the features as clear as possible. However, I now realize that not only the color is off (the patina is actually darker / deeper), but also those S-shaped lines look a little rounded or sculptured, which isn't the case at all.

 

For lack of more objective guinea pigs, I showed the Tsuba to my family and asked what they see. The answer was unisonous: a little stream; that's exactly what I saw all the time. Of course we still can discuss the artistic qualities of the arrangement, but holding the Tsuba in hand it really is obvious that we're not looking at a strange stem but water.

To me it suggests Kano Natsuo work, presumably by one of his many students.

Same here, although my limited experience with Kinko probably makes *my* opinion not carrying much weight.

 

 

While researching the motif on the internet, I luckily found an online seller that sold single pages from the publication KÅetsu (see this post), in which my Tsuba was pictured and described:

[Guido]

The description says (loosely translated) that this artist is not recorded, but looks like from the GotÅ IchijÅ Mon. Funada Ikkin had a student by the name of Kazuaki 一明, and Norikaki 則明 may have been Kazuaki's son or student. In any case, the author goes on, it is quite clear that the Tsuba is made in the tradition of IchijÅ.

 

Mr. Homma wrote that in 1977, and I don't know his reputation, but he obviously considers the name an important factor in his evaluation. BTW, in the above scan, and the Hozon papers from 1992, the Hitsu-ana was plugged, but the plug was already gone when I bought it. I wonder if it just fell out, or if it was removed intentionally.

 

In any case, here are some pictures of works by the Ichijô Mon for comparison:

[Guido]

Now, I'm not delusional, and clearly see the differences in quality of the KodÅgu in the scans in comparison to my Tsuba. I like it very much nonetheless, especially the "modern" feeling it has to me. I bought it for what it is - as Curran put it, "a nice little Tsuba" - and not a piece equal to the masters themselves. But at least it isn't one of those "miniature iron steering wheels" ...

 

Oh, and before I forget it: I sometimes see on very late, e.g. Meiji period work, the typical discoloration on the Seppadai suggesting that the Tsuba was mounted. Especially on otherwise pristine Tsuba, and taking into consideration the time they were made in, I wonder if that really comes from wear, or if we're looking at an artificially introduced feature.

[Brian]

Guido,

 

Unless I have my tsuba ura and omote switched again (entirely possible :lol: ) this may be the "trailing stem" that I was refering to (and possibly Dr L.)

I find it charming and very life-like.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Guido]

... this may be the "trailing stem" that I was refering to (and possibly Dr L.)

Oops, lokks like I have to work on my English, my eyesight, or possibly both ...

[docliss]

Dear Guido

 

Regarding your query re shibuichi and rogin, Nihon To Koza states in the glossary:

 

Rogin: Also called shibuichi, meaning one part silver to four parts copper. This percentage, however, is for an alloy of bad quality. Medium quality rogin contains 5 parts silver to 10 parts copper, and a high class one has 7 parts silver to 10 of copper.

 

Shibuichi: Alloy of one part silver to four parts copper.

 

Presumably the wide variation in colour that is seen amongst shibuichi kodogu is due in part to the proportion of silver therein, and it would seem reasonable to confine the term rogin to those pieces that acquire a silver colour on patination and, presumably, have the highest proportion of that metal in their alloy.

 

Do other members agree with my take on this?

 

Regards, John L.

[Ford Hallam]

For what it's worth, and based on what I've been able to discover from what little period documentation exists, it would appear that the generic term "Shibuichi" is a relatively new name for this group of silver/copper alloys. The impression is that it was first introduced in the Meiji period. I suspect in an attempt to make the craft sound more "scientific".

 

The more poetic names like Rogin ( misty, smoky or hazy silver ) and Abura gin ( greasy silver) were the usual, Edo period, references to the alloy we now call shibuichi.

 

I should also mention that the particular composition most used by Edo period fittings makers was called Sambo-gin and typically had a silver content of about 32%.

 

Another specific composition of roughly, half silver was referred to as Hoji-gin.

A composition of 20% silver was called Shiho-gin and one called Ansei-gin contained about 13~14% silver.

 

We further distinguish ( in modern times ) between various grades by using the following terms;

Shiro-shibuichi ( white shibuichi, high silver content )

Jo-shibuichi ( "good" shibuichi, 40% silver )

Nami-shibuichi ( regular, or normal, shibuichi, 25% silver )

Kuro-shibuichi ( black shibuichi, made with the addition of shakudo or kuromido ).

 

I would also caution against relying on silver content as being in anyway an accurate indicator of either colour ( this has a lot to do with the maxing of the alloy and the actual patination process )or "quality". In terms of an alloys aesthetic contribution the term quality becomes a bit subjective.

 

It might be of interest to learn that one of the most characteristically grainy, mid grey of these alloys that was used in the Meiji period by a number of Imperial artists contains only 16% silver. It is actually also one of my preferred compositions both for its colour and it's working properties.

 

anyway, hope this helps to confuse the issue

 

regards, Ford

 

p.s. Your suggestion, John, that rogin be confined to higher silver content alloys seems to me to be actually counter-intuitive. The haziness ( nashiji ) that the "Ro" part of the name alludes to becomes less and less visible as the silver content increases. But as I have suggested, Rogin was a term that seems to have been deliberately broad so as to encompass al the variations in composition, most of which were further defined by specific name.

[Bungo]

Ford,

you are making me thirsty...............

 

milt

[Ford Hallam]

sorry Milt, I suppose that was all a bit dry .

 

cheers then

[Guido]

I'm thirsty, too, but for a different reason. Kind of "let's have a beer after a job well done". :D

 

I read the description in the Kôza, but found it hard to digest. Ford's detailed explanation isn't something you easily find in books, and a valuable contribution to the study and understanding of sword fittings. Keep it coming, Ford!

[Rich T]

There is a little on this printed in English (and Guido is right, this information is sketchy at best in print and we should encourage every bit that we get) in Sôken Kodôgu Yogô to Meishô no Kaisetsu on the makeup of these compounds. I also found the following page the other day which appears interesting.

 

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/g900513/4960128

 

Just in regards to the reading of 朧銀, I have it as Oborogin, I think Ford you mentioned Abura gin ? I have Abura as oil, oily or greasy and Oboro as misty. Not totally sure there and I am happy to be corrected if wrong.

 

Cheers

 

Richard

[Guido]

The On-yomi of 朧 is RÔ, the Kun-yomi OBORO; I have nothing to back it up linguistically, but from the belly I would read it On in connection with 銀 GIN. According to Nelson, it means "haziness, dreaminess, gloom".

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Rich,

 

you're absolutely right, I wrote that lot without double checking the Abura-gin; it is of course " Oboro-gin. and as you say means misty silver. Abura is greasy or oily. The wrong word popped up in my jumbled mind and then I went on to compound the error by offering the English translation also. This is what happen when you think in 3 languages...

 

Good catch, Cheers, Rich

 

and thanks, Guido. I'll add what I can

 

I haven't got round to working out posting kanji yet but as you've shown, the character in Rogin is also read oboro. I'd tend to agree with you about the "correct" pronunciation being "rogin" but I have heard the alternative in Japan too, among metalworkers. I've come across other alloy names that similarly used both the ON and KUN readings of kanji. It is of course impossible to know how the word was pronounced in the past though, craftsmen can be a contrary lot.

[Rich T]

Hey Ford, I am surprised I got one right LOL

 

Hi Guido, I wouldn't correct you in regards to Japanese as you are miles and miles ahead of me. In Tsuba, an Aesthetic study, Torigoye lists

 

Oborogin as 朧銀

and

Rôgin as 鑞銀

 

and states both are alternatives for Shibuichi. Perhaps they are old readings ?, and not the current trends. I find this a very common problem when translating things. My Japanese friends here are always picking me up on new v old readings LOL.

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Guido]

You mean the book where he says that Kinkô never understood the true meaning of Tsuba, and wasted their talent on fancy surface decoration?

 

鑞 is "wax", as in Kuro-rô-iro, the deep glossy black of many Saya. The meaning of 鑞 and 朧 is, IMO, close enough to - together with the same reading - encouraging a mistake in choosing the wrong character. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it's indeed an alternative way to write the *same* thing. I've seen stranger things in the world of Nihonto ...

[Rich T]

Hi mate, he also wrote that in Tsuba Kanshoki and it migrated into his other works as well I think. He was of course referring to the base structure of tsuba, and implying that many Kinko works are fancy soft metal over lay over a poorly made base. Torigoye always insisted that the base or foundation was all important. This rule of course applies to many things in life.

 

But yeah LOL, that's the book.

 

Rich

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Rich,

just to further keep the subject appropriately hazy, the "ro" kanji you've shown in the compound for Rogin can also be read as "suzu"...tin!

 

Personally, I lean towards the first compound you illustrate, and am happy to call it either rogin or oborogin. I prefer the clear poetic implication and allusion to the nashiji effect that is characteristic of the alloy. I find the "wax/tin" alternative to sort of miss the essence of the metal.

 

But far be it for me to teach native Japanese authorities which kanji to use, or how to pronounce them

[Rich T]

LOL, fun isn't mate. I think I like your suggestion. Yes, lets leave it to the first suggestion.

 

Rich

[Guido]

After the "Kantei" of this Tsuba - which went off to some quite interesting topics - I thought I might finally show a few photos about its restoration (if it can be called that).

 

When I bought it, the silver was tarnished, and it had a sticky coat of grime which I suspected to be some sort of wax. After cleaning it with pure alcohol, I gently wiped the silver parts with a Q-tip I had put in a box of "never dull" the day before. Grime and discoloration were gone, but a kind of silverish halo appeared under the moon. It became evident that someone had cleaned the silver, probably using some fine steel wool or another mild abrasive. I applied some Baldwin's Patina (http://www.reactivemetals.com/Pages/rmspat.htm) to that area, which patinates copper but not silver or gold.

 

Although the result looked quite acceptable, I contacted Ford Hallam and asked for his opinion as well as suggestions about how to prevent the silver from becoming black again. Here's an excerpt from the e-mail he sent me (quoted with his permission):

In general, and in this particular case, there is no really "perfect" way to resore a part of the shibuichi patina. I suspect the result as you have it now is as good as one could expect. To be honest though, I have never used Baldwins patina so I have no idea how it works. The way shibuichi develops it's original patina is quite different to other copper alloys. As you probably know, the mix of copper and silver isn't homogenous. The idea is to have the silver molecules as discrete particles in a copper matrix. The colouring only acts on the copper, leaving the silver untouched. This is what results in the characteristic grain known as "nashiji".

 

What happens when these patinas get stained is that invariably it's the copper content of the surface that is affected. Removing this "stain" will naturally eliminate the affected copper leaving that area slightly silver rich. This always leaves a halo around the re-patinated area. The only way to avoid this is to completely remove all trace of the old patina and redevelop it afresh. Done correctly it is an invisible job.

 

Silver as generally used on kodogu is almost always pure silver. It will inevitably tarnish with time and is probably planned for in many cases...the old sabi thing.

 

You can slow this process by keeping a few anti-tarnish tabs in the space where you keep your collection.

 

Here's a link to the sort of thing I've advised dealers in London to use; http://www.conservationresources.com/Ma ... n32_02.htm

 

Incidentally, I'd avoid the use of the jewellers polishing cloths on iroe-e work, and iron for that matter.

Picture # 1 shows the Tsuba as illustrated in the magazine "Koetsu" in 1977, and pic # 2 in the NBTHK Kanteisho from 1992. It looked like in pic # 3 when I bought it, and pic # 4 shows it after I cleaned it. Pic # 5, after "repatination", was taken yesterday, and gets as close to its true color as my limited skills with a camera permitted; it also gives a good impression of the Nashiji effect Ford mentioned.