Shachi - Dragon Fish

[GRC]

Dale, it's this version from page 1:

[Spartancrest]

This one is a little rough and ready - 

[GRC]

Another Nanban version in soft metal.

[Spartancrest]

Another Shachi - this one close to the one I previously posted, likely a casting.  

https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1052994185

[GRC]

Soft metal casting:

[Spartancrest]

 

https://wikijp.org/hashtags/seiryuken   - sorry no information with this one - I love the colour!

[b.hennick]

The one above seems to have wings rather than fins. Great face on this one.

[GRC]

Beautiful workmanship on that one Dale 

 

Spotted another nanban tsuba variation that has a castle and fish as well, with an unusually large and round seppa-dai for a nanban tsuba:

[Spartancrest]

Wow I like that one! Do you think the hitsu were added latter? The holes look lined in silver? Very much a Chinese style seppa-dai [sure the Chinese don't call it that - no idea what it is in Chinese.]

[GRC]

I think you're probably right Dale.

 

The hitsu-ana liners were most likely added later, and probably even the hitsu-ana themselves. It's really rare to have white-metal liners in the hitsu-ana of a Nanban tsuba. Although there does appear to be some silver nunome on the castle's outline... so it was a good choice by whoever added them in.

 

And, as you pointed out, the large round seppa-dai is more of a continental East-Asian layout, rather than specifically Japanese.

 

I love how the waves are simple repeated arcs on the left side, then get more random toward the upper right side. 

This is definitely a top-notch Nanban tsuba.

[Spartancrest]

  

 

 Sorry for the grainy image it was from a very small picture. I thought it was close to the menuki image.

[b.hennick]

I still see wings not fins.

[Spartancrest]

Fins on this one - sorry the images are grainy.

[Kurikata]

Curently on Ebay:https://www.ebay.com/itm/275301671197?hash=item401942211d%3Ag%3AxlgAAOSwyS5idTZe&LH_Auction=1

[Spartancrest]

Barry - Shachi key ring!  https://www.jauce.com/auction/w1014869886

[GRC]

Found a third example of this type:

[GRC]

Unusual seppa-dai and hitsu-ana arrangement, making an 8-point web-shape... maybe a nod to the 8 Buddhist principles?

8 points like these tsuba:

 

[GRC]

a real statement piece!

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!!

 

So, here is another of my tsuba.  Appears to have a couple of different carved "dragons".  Shachi dragon fish on the left of the tsuba (with a pearl in its mouth?), a "normal" dragon at the top of the tsuba, and another "creature" (can't figure out what it is) on the lower right of the tsuba.

 

With respect,

Dan

[GRC]

Dan, I think that's one single dragon wrapped around the face of the tsuba, and its body is disappearing and reappearing through clouds.  

The lower right part is the tip of the dragon's tail, with this kind of tail tip:

[GRC]

Finally, a genuine one of these that isn't a mass produced casting!

I was starting to wonder if an original hand-worked example ever existed at all. lol

Strange that the top kanji of the mei seems like it was purposefully rubbed out though...

[Spartancrest]

 

Glen, x2? This one with some gold nunome - no signature, same time, same Bat channel. 

and I am not mentioning the source.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all, again!

 

Thanks Glen for your analysis of that dragon tsuba.  I can see what you are saying.  Although I think I have another unique Shachi fish dragon tsuba.   Dale has seen this one before.  What is neat is that both hitsu ana are an "unusual" shape!  The other similar Shachi fish tsuba on this thread don't look the same.

 

With respect,

Dan

[GRC]

Yours is definitely different from the rest Dan.

 

Here's the two Dale and I posted, but side by side now:

The one key difference that I can spot is the treatment of the dorsal fins (above and below the hitsu-ana).

The one on the left seems to have a few "voids" in the pattern.

Maybe I need to reconsider my earlier "hand worked" statement... unless the one on the right was initially cast then worked by hand afterward to reach a higher standard of finish. Maybe that's why the one on the right got a signature? 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

Thanks, Glen, for posting the Shachi dragon fish tsuba side by side.

 

So, is my Shachi fish dragon tsuba cast or not?? Has it been cast and worked by hand?  I don’t believe it is cast.  The “tagane-ato” probably could not be hammered into a cast tsuba (they would have to be molded with the tsuba).  Also, probably (to me) what appears to be casting marks in the hitsu ana is more than likely a buildup of rust.  Evidently, I dd not clean it very well!!

 

Anyway, that particular tsuba is at my “main tsuba museum house” in Arizona.  I am currently at my “annex tsuba museum house” in Wyoming.  When I return to Arizona, I will check out that Shachi dragon fish tusba more closely to determine if it is possibly cast or not (or cast and worked by hand).

 

With respect,

Dan

[roger dundas]

Once again, raising it's head- is it cast or is it formed, heated, sawn, hammered, chiseled, filed, poked and prodded into shape from a lump of iron, steel or other exotic metal.

How easy is it to always be sure.

I personally love the uncertainty of it all eventually leading to a certainty and an understanding.

Thanks to all you very smart and knowledgeable contributors.

Roger j

[GRC]

Dan: we would need some better images of yours to get a better sense. 

 

Roger:

12 hours ago, roger dundas said:

I personally love the uncertainty of it all eventually leading to a certainty and an understanding.

Me too... it's lots of fun doing this sort of hunting for clues and evidence 

 

I started looking at the signed one more closely, and there's definitely some suspect areas on the ura side...

1- Some weird streaked pitting on one of the dragon heads, and an incomplete dragon horn tip.

2- some incomplete tail fin spines on the left tail:

3- The left side of the pearl and both teeth of the left dragon also look flawed

 

It would be pretty hard to explain all those if it was all done by hand from start to finish.

 

Maybe the pearl and tooth could have been the result of a flake/chunk of material that broke away or some rust damage... but in the context of the other flawed areas, and having no signs of major rusting anywhere else, plus the near identicalness to the other "twin" tsuba... I'm leaning toward the idea that these are all examples of some type of casting flaw.

 

So, I'm thinking this is a cast tsuba that was finished by hand to hit a higher standard of finish.

[GRC]

Shachi fuchi & kashira set, signed:

 

[Spartancrest]

 The Victoria and Albert Museum has a nice double Shachi Tanto guard.

 

[Spartancrest]

 

Wings not fins - https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1059114285   700,000yen  - Way out of my pay grade!