Gifted Sword

[raynor]

Greetings,

 

I was given a blade as a gift and have some questions regarding the quality of the blade and craftsmanship involved for any willing to provide some insight. I am very new to Japanese swords and eager to learn!

 

Some info about it before photos - I know it is not an antique, it was made with supposedly modern steel so it was most likely not folded. The polish seems decent, I can see myself like in a mirror and the blade "disappears" when mirrored in nearby vegetation but it's not what one could call a fully finished art polish.

The blade is long, a tiny bit over 33 inches from tsuba to kissaki. The balance point with tsuka and fittings on is 6.5 inches on the dot from the tsuba. When balanced on my finger the blade tilts slowly until the ha points directly skyward and the mune firmly rests on the cloth around my finger.

The hamon appears to be gunome style - again I am a novice so point it out if I'm talking rubbish here. Does hamon styles mean anything besides cosmetics?

 

The hamon is no surprise hard to photograph, if anyone has any pointers I'd welcome the advice. I tried to get some good shots in the dwindling sunlight.

edit The dark aligned lines on the hamon in the last two photos are nearby power cables, took me a moment to figure out.

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

Don't know how to answer this. No way to know what the sword is. Could be modern Chinese production. Once stated that it is modern production, that only leaves a Shinsakuto (made by a modern qualified Japanese smith in Japan) as a legit Nihonto. If not, it could be made in any number of countries, and all of them would be beyond the scope of this forum.
What origin have you been given?

[vajo]

For me it looks like a Chinese production. To much straight lines through the hamon. I guess the blad lenght is something between 72 cm and 74 cm. No picture of the nakago?

[raynor]

Hi Brian, Chris,

 

It was given to me by a friend from Japan as a personal gift as a "thanks for your help" after I in the past gave him some career advice that's apparently worked out. I sure hope he didn't drop a $50 Chinese shop copy on me, that would be very out of his character 

 

The sword looks and feels great, fittings are dark non decorated heavy iron for tsuba, fuchi and kashira. Plain but functional. Higo style I think its called? The tsuka has a full black ray skin wrap and indigo blue silk tsukamaki if that means anything vs the more common "going-to-see the-Shogun" black ito white same?

It is correctly wrapped for hands to grip and comfortably use the sword, ie. no knot where right thumb rests under the fuchi and bottom knots near the kashira similarly accommodating left palm's position. The wrap is very tight. The two mekugi appear bamboo, fitted in very tightly at slight angles.

 

I do not know who made it, he didn't tell I didn't ask, And the thing is so tightly put together I'm as of yet not confident enough to try take it apart. It is for this sword not very important to me as it is a gift I don't see me ever appraising or selling. One day I might seek out a professional to touch up the polish, especially if I decide to actually cut with it.

I was mainly looking for information on the quality of the blade, I believe you can tell quite a bit from the hamon, if its been hammered out in a Chinese factory or made by someone more in the know? Chris, are you referring to any grain structure or otherwise? The straight lines I see are from me, in my wisdom, taking photos while still cleaning off the oil gunk from transport, oops. I know enough to tell the hamon is most likely real, ie the blade was clay hardened and not faked with acid or such, but that is where my Japanese sword knowledge so far effectively stops.

 

Thanks for the comments!

[vajo]

Omar you describe perfectly a chinese repro.

 

 

Nothing wrong with it. Enjoy it as a gift.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Chinese made sword in the Japanese style, looks like one made for martial arts use, a nice gift and memento for display.

[raynor]

Thanks Chris, I believe you if you say so. I'm curious how you figure that out, is that from the photos or something else? I for fun cut some hanging paper now before putting it away for today, and it went through it like air, no shearing. I do not really mind if it's Chinese as it seems a solid blade but I'm eager to know how one tells the difference? 

[Brian]

Omar,
Some of the high end Chinese swords (if it does turn out to be that) are not $50 junk, but forged swords with oil or water hardened blades, real hamon and perform well. Lots of them in the $200 to $600 range. Can't tell for sure yet what it is. Many made in Longquan. Can't see one of these coming out of Japan, and if it did it would have had to be registered and have papers.
Either way, it isn't junk and looks well made.

[Greg F]

Hi Raynor your blade looks like a t10 steel blade to me made in china. Ideal for if you are to learn how to use a Japanese sword. A lot of us started out with modern repro style swords before being sucked down the whirlpool of Nihonto study and collecting.

All the best.

 

Greg

[vajo]

Omar can you show us the complete sword and a picture of the nakago? We are all walking in a dark room, there is no light.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Omar,

Here is a care & etiquette page that will teach you how to remove and replace the handle (and a lot more).

http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm

The placement of the hi (the groove carved in the upper area, away from the edge) is abnormal, which leads me to think this is modern Chinese.

Grey

[Blazeaglory]

Could still be made in Japan, just new. If not then Chinese (but still somewhat well made). But I think everyone is correct and the bohi does look a little "odd", so more than likely it's Chinese

 

Only way to find out is nakago(tang). Get a tsuka(handle) remover if it's stuck and use a rubber or wooden mallet (sometimes the little brass hammer works) and gently tap it until its loose then carefully remove the tsuka.

[ROKUJURO]

Dwain,

steel sword blades which are not made traditionally with TAMAHAGANE are not allowed in Japan. They are simply considered weapons. Exception are IAITO with blunt aluminium-zinc alloy blades.

[Katsujinken]

Dwain we love enthusiasm from new folks. And so I say the following as gently as possible: if you’re new to the study of nihonto you shouldn’t be coming into threads like this offering your opinion. You simply don’t know enough. And the truth is most of us here don’t know enough, in general. We each have an area or two where we can really give an informed opinion.

 

Beyond that, the community is best served by always letting more experienced folks handle threads specifically asking for assistance or evaluation. We’re dealing with objects that are important to people and potentially worth a ton of money. Or not. It’s delicate for a number of reasons.

 

So sit back, relax, read more than you post, and contribute where you can really add value.

 

And please resist the urge to respond with a 1300 word diatribe, despite your good intentions.

[Blazeaglory]

Dwain,

 

steel sword blades which are not made traditionally with TAMAHAGANE are not allowed in Japan. They are simply considered weapons. Exception are IAITO with blunt aluminium-zinc alloy blades.mods

MODS PLEASE DELETE

[Blazeaglory]

Dwain we love enthusiasm from new folks. And so I say the following as gently as possible: if you’re new to the study of nihonto you shouldn’t be coming into threads like this offering your opinion. You simply don’t know enough. And the truth is most of us here don’t know enough, in general. We each have an area or two where we can really give an informed opinion.

 

Beyond that, the community is best served by always letting more experienced folks handle threads specifically asking for assistance or evaluation. We’re dealing with objects that are important to people and potentially worth a ton of money. Or not. It’s delicate for a number of reasons.

 

So sit back, relax, read more than you post, and contribute where you can really add value.

 

And please resist the urge to respond with a 1300 word diatribe, despite your good intentions.

 

 

Dwain,

 

steel sword blades which are not made traditionally with TAMAHAGANE are not allowed in Japan. They are simply considered weapons. Exception are IAITO with blunt aluminium-zinc alloy blades.

 

ROKUJURO:

 

Good to know! Thanks!

 

And to Katsujiken:

 

There are still new swords made in Japan No? What did I say wrong? Because OPs blade doesnt appear to be quality (not my opinion but in general) it some how negates the fact that there are new makers of Japanese swords? Could it not be a dull made practice sword someone put an edge on (im not saying it is so please dont twist my words)?

 

And if not, its Chinese right? Did I not write that?

 

If you have a problem with me kindly send me a PM next time. What makes you think I havent been reading for a while now? Just because I am new here to post, doesn't mean I haven't been reading. Also, tell me... A person cant be relaxed and make multiple posts? Read my posts slow and in a calm voice in your head, maybe that will help because I am pretty calm most of my life. Are you tired of seeing my posts maybe? Forums are meant for posting and sharing, sorry you dont like the speed or quantity of my posts.

 

I never said OPs was made in Japan, just that new swords are still made in Japan. Did you not read shortly after "more than likely its Chinese"? I never compared it to any modern smiths or great new swords now did I?

 

So tell me what did I say exactly that "should be left up to the pros" when dealing with a Chinese sword? What did I say different than anyone else here before I posted? How am I ruining a fragile moment? I never insulted the OP, or never meant to at least. I would really like to know from you

 

Maybe some advice from me...Dont assume or jump to conclusions and if you dont like me, send me a PM or leave me alone, block me (thats what its for), or work it out with yourself... because it sounds like you need to relax while you comment with veiled insults. Dont call me out in someone else's thread ruining it and basically doing what you accuse me of doing. Please keep that private next time and PM me.

 

If I did respond with a 1300 word diatribe, what does that matter to you? Afraid of a lengthy read? Didnt you just say to read more but in the same post tell me not to write a 1300 word diatribe? Like I said, next time kindly send me a PM if you want to insult me for no reason.

 

This is the last time I respond to you in this thread

[raynor]

Brian, you are right that there are no papers with this. It may very well be a Chinese blade from Longquan. If I were to get myself a good Chinese jian or dao etc. that is the place I'd look for a craftsman.

They've been forging swords in Longquan for at least 2500 years, nowadays there is the epidemic sprouting of ebay sellers claiming to be from serious Longquan forges but they are at best selling their scraps if we're talking about real swords and not the rat tail wallhangers.

Giving the prices and limitations on Japanese swords even post 1980s I'm not gonna put our friendship on hold if he aquired one from a forge there to me, good sword from Longquan is one of those instances when Made in China can be a seal of approval.

 

Chris, I'll try and put up photos of the nakago when I can confidently take it apart, thanks a lot Grey for the link for that. I've been short on time today. I'm curious what you meant on the horizontal lines on the hamon - were you referring to the not perfect polish or maybe difference in material or method? I'd love to know any details.

The bohi does indeed look a little off, short even for a partial one? Might be for balance or remove a fault?

 

Couple more photos I didnt put up, noticed the saya slopes inwards a little. Not seen that before but I'm still a greenhorn on Japanese blades, but it does make for a great fit and I presume preventing the sword touching the saya any more then needed when sheating.

 

Thanks for the input all

 

 

[Brian]

Dwain,
It cannot be a dull made practice sword that someone put an edge on. As mentioned, live practice swords are illegal in Japan, and it would not have been made of steel. Dull or not.
The only exception are real (costly) swords made by modern smiths (shinsakuto) and this isn't one of them. They would have been registered and licensed and this is fairly clearly not a shinsakuto.
This is primarily what Michael is getting at...that we need to be careful when we make absolute statements. Newcommers are flooded with replies, and they don't know who is an old collector with solid facts, or someone reasonably new and who is giving an opinion that is not quite as solid. So they get flooded with info and cannot work out which is more likely to be factual or accurate.
Just bear this in mind when (anyone) throws out info. Unfortunately not all info or opinions are equal. I know my own knowledge is barely minimal...and there are a ton of guys here who should be listened to before my advice. That is something I acknowledge and don't mind it being pointed out.
The advise is always to read more...post less in the beginning. That goes for all of us. And be careful before making absolute statements less we confuse people.
No need to take offense. This is a game where 10 years makes you a novice. Just like myself and most others.

[ROKUJURO]

Omar,

that looks like a nicely crafted beefy SAYA, and as far as one can see, even the TSUKA-ITO was bound in a correct way. The blade may be well made, too, but it does not look Japanese in some aspects. It does not seem to have any HADA, and of course the polish cannot bring out more than is intended and 'invested' by the smith. It reminds me of many oil-tempered WWII blades with no activity in the HAMON.  

I am not suggesting to use it in TAMESHIGIRI, as I don't have the slightest idea about the technical qualities of the blade (resilience, hardness, correct cross-section a.s.o.), but it may be suited for that. Better than using a genuine (expensive) sword!

[PNSSHOGUN]

The fittings indicate a higher quality chinese production sword.

[Guest]

Hi guys, sorry to be late to the party and greetings from somewhere in the wilds of northen Chiba Ken, Japan...........   Sorry Brian, could not resist popping that in..........

 

The whole item looks like a Chinese/Thai made for Iai/Batto blade and koshirae.

 

Now that is not to denigrate it. 

 

They work very well as long as you keep the sharp pointy bit away from you and other sentient beings. 

 

I would not however advise trying to remove the Tsuka under any circumstances.

 

Chinese/Thai made for martial arts koshirae are what can best be described as "Timber Shim" packed to make a tight fit.

 

Again, not to denigrate, as they work very well for their intended use within their price point.

 

Pip Pip Cheerio all

[Bazza]

Not taking anything at all away from the discussion above; however, no one has mentioned or pointed out (perhaps it didn't need to be???) the clear nie structure evident in the hamon in the photo herewith, repeated from the OP's Post #1.  So this must be a water quenched steel blade whatever its origin.  The horizontal lines also mentioned (but not discussed further) seem to me to be marks from a linisher with a follow up (?) to "bring out" the hamon.  I say again the nie structure is clearly evident, more so if the image is magnified in an image application.

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

Yes, I noticed that. But all the better Chinese swords now have nie and many are water quenched. They might even have oil quenching that leads to nie. I did factor that in, but nothing swings it to shinsakuto. Look at the various eBay swords from Komonjo out of China/Thailand and they get very convincing with nie and hamon and hada.

[ROKUJURO]

Barry,

with this not so well focused photo it is NIOI at best to my eyes, and you see that also in oil quenched blades.

[Blazeaglory]

Dwain,

It cannot be a dull made practice sword that someone put an edge on. As mentioned, live practice swords are illegal in Japan, and it would not have been made of steel. Dull or not.

The only exception are real (costly) swords made by modern smiths (shinsakuto) and this isn't one of them. They would have been registered and licensed and this is fairly clearly not a shinsakuto.

This is primarily what Michael is getting at...that we need to be careful when we make absolute statements. Newcommers are flooded with replies, and they don't know who is an old collector with solid facts, or someone reasonably new and who is giving an opinion that is not quite as solid. So they get flooded with info and cannot work out which is more likely to be factual or accurate.

Just bear this in mind when (anyone) throws out info. Unfortunately not all info or opinions are equal. I know my own knowledge is barely minimal...and there are a ton of guys here who should be listened to before my advice. That is something I acknowledge and don't mind it being pointed out.

The advise is always to read more...post less in the beginning. That goes for all of us. And be careful before making absolute statements less we confuse people.

No need to take offense. This is a game where 10 years makes you a novice. Just like myself and most others.

Thanks Brian.

 

I'm not offended. It will take way more than that too offend me. I jyst ask that if someone wants to call me out please do it privately.

 

And not to flame the fire but here's a Japanese made practice sword for less than $500. They are out there. I never said the OPs was, I was just trying to give him hope and let him down easy. Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it's impossible. And if that's not a Japanese website then i was wrong and unlike many long time users here, I'll admit that! So if skyjiro isn't Japanese, hey i made a mistake.(hence why I told OP to check the tang) That's why i ask to send me a PM instead of chastising me publicly

 

https://www.skyjiroforge.com/mokko-musashi-stainless-steel-iaito-p-75.html?zenid=qmi0dnhn8nljbcs5gsdfo1ses1

 

But did I say anything different than anyone before me? No. And ill leave it at that as to respect this thread and website. I would never call someone out like that with veiled insults on a pubic forum unless I wanted tu publicly insult and embarrass someone. There's

 

A difference between well respected old timers with valid info and straight up side ways insults...I know the difference between the two... So what about that and him? People can get the same results from self research and books and forgo the insults and headaches. No offense but i think people like him scare allot of newcomers (new blood and money) from posting here. No insults intended but I've read many threads where these supposedly respected pros insult and bash first time poster's in regards to their Chinese or less than great swords and this guy has the nerve to call me out for saying roughly the same thing (without insults) as everyone else but throwing in a little hope?

 

It's like that story.. how many ppl does it take to screw in a light bulb? Well how many ppl does it take to say "its a Chinese sword I'm sorry" (not that having a Chinese sword is a bad thing) . So i understand what you're saying Brian but on the same coin it would be nice if you talked to "the pros" and asked them to measure twice and cut once so to speak because it's turning allot of ppl off to this website I would imagine.

 

For you Brian , because i respect your opinion, I will slow down on my posting considering it offends some people. I just wish originally before this debate started, that it could have been solved privately. But I will take it easy from now on.

 

Think of the old Japanese stories where a God comes down to annoy ppl just to test them. Most fail. Only the best pass.

 

Take care Brian

[Stephen]

Aoi Art sells swords they consider good for Iaido pretty sure there live blades

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/japaneseswords/iaido/

[raynor]

Barry,

 

with this not so well focused photo it is NIOI at best to my eyes, and you see that also in oil quenched blades.

Good call, I admit doing all these with my mere S9 phone, I'll try get some better shots of the hamon later when I finish cleaning and apply oil. Any tips for useful hamon shots? I recon people want to look at the angle when the hamon shows as milky white and not when tilted to appear more mirror like?

There is no hada, I was told the blade was made with modern steel likely with cutting in mind so no folding needed. I'd bet that would further increase costs by a lot and potentially could even weaken the blade.

 

I was told the sword is good for cutting anything sensible one can cut with a sword so tameshigiri and such should not be a problem. I do not plan on taking it to that or a pig leg for that matter any time soon as a Japanese style sword is a very different beast to the kind of blades I have experience cutting with, it is definitively not a baseball bat.. Display piece only for the foreseeable future until I might literally get a grip so to speak.

 

Since I see it mentioned, is there any difference to quenching a blade in oil versus water?

The saya is indeed impressive, well crafted and uniform paint throughout. I'd think uniform black gloss like this can be tricky to get right. Also no rattle and sheating feels like the blade glides on rails in and out. 

[Brian]

The linked swords of Dwains are not Japanese. As mentioned, they would be illegal there. These are Chinese. You won't get a Shinsakuto for under many thousands of $'s..

[Grey Doffin]

Best never to cut with a sword that you don't know the origin of, even if it looks well made.  If there is a defect inside, the blade can shatter on impact and broken pieces become shrapnel.

Grey

[chrstphr]

SkyJiro forge blades are made in the USA.  Not Japanese made. 

 

 

Kinzan is David Goldberg

 

https://www.skyjiroforge.com/index.php?main_page=about_us

 

 

 

 

Chris