Maetate Condition

[Ken-Hawaii]

A fellow collector recently bought a nice set of yoroi, & asked me this afternoon about the kabuto's maetate. Should he polish the brass, or leave it in its current greenish & stained state?

 

He wants to polish it, & put on a preservative, & I haven't got a clue if that's kosher. Thanks for any advice.

[Guest]

Ian B or Dave T are the men to advise for this, but Pics necessary I suspect.

[uwe]

Hi Ken,

 

judging maedate might be tricky. Plenty of “modern” replicas on the market! Real Edo period pieces are quite rare. So like Malcolm said, pics necessary.....!

[Guido]

I'm by no means knowledgeable about armor and maedate, but if I'm not totally wrong, most were made of lacquered paper, leather or wood. At least that's my impression from looking at quite a few period pieces. I've never seen any maedate made of brass that I would confidently place in the Edo period, those always seem to me like later replacements.

 

Again, I'm not an expert, so I would like to hear from those forumites more familiar with the topic whether my observation is correct or not.

[Ken-Hawaii]

That's really interesting, Guido! Most of what I've seen are brass or bronze, and I thought they were contemporary with the kabuto. I'll ask Eddie to send me a photo or two, but his maedate is definitely brass. He just sold his house, & is busily packing everything up, so I hope I get to him in time.

[Guest]

Hi Ken do you mean the pair of Kuwagata which are often found on older styles of armour?

 

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-helmet-with-standing-ridges-the-bowl-4349299-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4349299&sid=3b6e16aa-b0f6-449c-be40-758b8647c4d4

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/Japanese-antique-yoroi-kabuto-maetate-1734694089

[IanB]

Ken,  What appears to be brass is more often gilded copper. I have several made in this material that I know are original - one ridiculously tiny pair of kuwagata (only about 8cm across) with a kirimon between them actually all takes apart but why you would want to do so escapes me. Wood and rawhide are also common enough, both being gold lacquered in the main. If the one you refer to is very corroded I would leave it. The gilding is inevitably porous and the corrosion products leach out onto the surface. Attempts to clean it will probably strip off the remaining gilding.

Ian Bottomley

[Justin Grant]

The general rule for antiques of metal is Silver and Brass are ok to polish, but Copper and Gold should remain with the patina.

 

That being said, it's his, and can do as he pleases. And as for brass or bronze maedate being post Edo, not sure about that blanket statement. I have two that  are Mid/Late Edo, and are brass. They may have been guilt, but that has since worn off.

[Greg F]

I personally would leave brass patina.

 

Greg

[TETSUGENDO]

It could be properly restored at substantial expense, or left as is....Garish, gleaming lacquered brass would be quite unappealing.

 

-S-

[Ken-Hawaii]

My cable modem died last night, & by the time it was replaced, & I got back to him to ask for a photo, he had already used Brasso on the maetate, so I guess the question is moot, at least for him.

 

Thanks for that info, Ian. I haven't touched the maetate on my own kabuto, & now I'm glad that I left them alone. Just from curiosity, why gilded copper & not brass? I guess the gilding would have prevented some corrosion, but I also wasn't aware that gold plating was going on 'way back then.

[Guest]

Hi Ken.,

 

"Just from curiosity, why gilded copper & not brass?"

 

Ford H is the man to answer that from the ground level so to speak, however, I understand he does reside on the Riviera and may be on one of his Yachts.........

 

Spoiler alert:  Ford lives in the area known as Torbay which is known as the English Riviera.

[IanB]

Ken,  Japan has / had an abundance of copper and until recently zinc was almost impossible to produce as the metal as it is volatile and vapourises as it is being reduced. Making brass (latten) in Europe involved adding a zinc ore to copper so that the zinc dissolved in the copper as it was reduced from the ore. Prof. Gowland in the 19th century did a great deal of analysis of Japanese alloys and mentions 'brass' only briefly - once as metal for coinage, a vase and  as sentoku which is a copper, tin, lead, zinc alloy.

Ian Bottomley

[Ken-Hawaii]

Thanks, Ian. Maybe I'm thinking of bronze (Cu + Sn), rather than brass.

[DaveT]

I was told by one katchushi that a one-point brass was as valuable as gold due to its rarity.

[TETSUGENDO]

Thanks for that info, Ian. I haven't touched the maetate on my own kabuto, & now I'm glad that I left them alone. Just from curiosity, why gilded copper & not brass? I guess the gilding would have prevented some corrosion, but I also wasn't aware that gold plating was going on 'way back then.

FYI, although the technique of electroplating was introduced to Japan by the latter part of the 19th century, the traditional means of 'gilding' non- ferrous metals was acomplished by fire gilding/mercury gilding....a technique which goes back, at least, to the 4th century B.C. in Greece.

 

-S-

[IanB]

Ken,  I once watched a video of guy gilding the decorative copper plates off a building. He cleaned the copper then washed it over with mercuric nitrate solution which left a film of mercury on the copper, then laid a sheet of gold leaf on the top and heated it over burning charcoal. Needless to say he was outside when he was doing it.

Ian Bottomley

[DaveT]

I its illegal now in Europe.

[TETSUGENDO]

And well it should be as erethism mercurialis is not fun.  Although it has been outlawed in many places, for many years, it still goes on.

 

-S-

[Justin Grant]

It’s also important to remember that while brass has been in Japan since the 400’s. It had a different zink content than brass of today. That’s what makes it hard on replacement parts for items like Teppo and armor that had brass pieces, the colors are different in the natural state and the patina will also differ based on the zink.

[TETSUGENDO]

Very true, modern brass is generally a clearer brighter yellow, and its surface characteristics are very different.

 

-S-

[Ken-Hawaii]

'Way back in the late 60s when I worked for Motorola, we used Copper-Copper-Gold & Copper-Nickel-Gold over Silicon in discrete semiconductors. I hadn't heard about the Copper-Mercury-Gold technique. Wasn't Gold considered too expensive to use in gilding maetate?

[Bugyotsuji]

O-yoroi. Originally those thin kuwagata maedate would surely have shone on the battlefield. Patina on Shinchu though, is a strong indicator of age and can show original impurities which would not exist in modern brass replicas. For this reason I would be inclined to confine myself to giving a gentle buff to remove some of the active loose corrosion.

 

Kabuto are heavy enough on their own, so a thick brass Maedate would make no sense. I have a circular shinchu Kuyomon 'Maedate' which is really too thick and heavy and must have been adapted from something else. Fine for a display stand though. Gilded or gold-lacquered wood or leather as Ian says above would have done the job just as well at a fraction of the weight. I have just gently waxed and polished a Noshi Maedate to remove trace physical dirt and to uncover some of the natural gold shine embedded in the lacquer.