Pictures Of "tanker"

[Ontario_Archaeology]

Interesting Bruce, That might explain the difference between 

this: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-NAVY-COMPANY-OFFICER-S-SWORD-TASSEL-katana-sword-gunto/323703723417?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

and this: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-ARMY-OFFICER-SHIN-GUNTO-SWORD-TASSEL-ORIGINAL-LATE-WAR/312499194904?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dd1a53e4be90249e2a202e71b44506f0e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D312499194904%26itm%3D312499194904&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af94c9211-3873-11e9-b979-74dbd180f652%7Cparentrq%3A2139e69e1690aca6f2e9427dfff20c99%7Ciid%3A1

 

the first one would be the army? and the second one navy?

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 2/24/2019 at 8:39 PM, Ontario_Archaeology said:

Interesting Bruce, That might explain the difference between 

this: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-NAVY-COMPANY-OFFICER-S-SWORD-TASSEL-katana-sword-gunto/323703723417?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

and this: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-ARMY-OFFICER-SHIN-GUNTO-SWORD-TASSEL-ORIGINAL-LATE-WAR/312499194904?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3Dd1a53e4be90249e2a202e71b44506f0e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D312499194904%26itm%3D312499194904&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Af94c9211-3873-11e9-b979-74dbd180f652|parentrq%3A2139e69e1690aca6f2e9427dfff20c99|iid%3A1

 

the first one would be the army? and the second one navy?

Hard to say Matt, both are lighter than the new Navy color. The second is advertised as a “late war” army. This is what they have been know as, but recent discovery indicates these were used by the lance corporal and NCO equivalents in the Gunzuko, or civilian in military service ranks. Read about it here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

[Stephen]

But one cant be sure it was used by Navy. To my eye a blue brown would be a better fit.

[Ontario_Archaeology]

If I remember correctly there was originally a blue/brown with this? 

[IJASWORDS]

The late war NCO swords had the lighter brown tassel used to replace the leather examples used earlier.   

[lambo35]

I believe the IJN had many T97 tanks [small ones].

[george trotter]

On the OP topic about short gunto names etc....

 

I just looked up my old records...in 1990 I had a kaigunto mounted wakizashi by (Mino-den) Aizu Kanesada,  early shinto c.1725. Blade was 54.6  cm (21.5 inches) and scabbard was 30 inches. Until you took the blade out it looked like a normal daito. So, except for those swords deliberately mounted with shorter gunto hilt and saya, the average wakizashi in gunto mounts was mounted as a daito.

I have to say that in the early days of my collecting (when Stephen was still a lad), we never heard the term tanker/sub/crew etc ever used. We also never saw the shorter mounts either...but don't forget, I'm talking about Australia in the 70s-90s, We didn't know much and had far fewer soldiers bring-back swords compared with the US. I think the term used now is a "newish" invention (like Type 3, Naval Landing sword etc.)...be interesting to one day have this clarified....although Stephen took us a long way forward when he linked us to that short gunto made for Prince what's-his-name.

If anyone wants to look at the Kanesada I mention it's oshi is in the Malcolm Cox book "Mino-To" (supplement p.25).

Interesting discussion.

Regards,

[Bazza]

On the "tanker" question, here is a photo captioned as "Japanese bomber pilots".  Their swords look full-size shingunto???  I have no idea, but did these pilots actually take the swords with them on missions, or are they merely props for the group photo??

 

BaZZa.

 

[Ontario_Archaeology]

The mass amount of variation in the mounts and how un-uniform the gunto were make me think almost anything is possible. Here is the Ohmura page on the navy "crew" gunto http://ohmura-study.net/762.html

[Bruce Pennington]

I have read that carrying swords on the airplane was discouraged, some guys did it anyway though.

[IJASWORDS]

I have pictured a paratroopers sword (yellow ito with paratroopers sarute), against the same length as a normal sword. I would suggest that carrying a sword of any length in a crowded plane, would cause havoc. And the sword was commensurate with rank, not every pilot, tanker or sub-mariner was entitled to a sword any way. The sword carriers in BaZZa's photo would be officers, with normal length swords, that wouldn't be taken in the plane where space and weight  is a premium. 

Many of the shorter swords came to be when the Government relaxed its minimum length requirement for family swords sold to the IJA/IJN. Officers that had desk jobs and were entitled to swords, often opted for the shorter sword.           

[PNSSHOGUN]

Many fighters had a storage compartment in fuselage, if a pilot was to carry his sword it would be in there when moving to different airfields. There are accounts of pilots carrying their swords with them (especially in Kamikaze missions) but for all we know it could've been propaganda or isolated cases.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 2/24/2019 at 10:02 PM, IJASWORDS said:

The late war NCO swords had the lighter brown tassel used to replace the leather examples used earlier.   

 

Neil,

 

I'm curious about your source on this.  It's my understanding that the all brown was used by the uniformed civilian corps (Gunzuko, I believe), so an NCO or Lance Corporal equivalent might have carried that arrangement if I understand the latest on these correctly.

 

Discussed here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

[Mister Gunto]

I'd think most pilots, and especially if they owned an expensive or an old family blade, wouldn't want to bring them along on their flights. Both as it'd be in the way in what was often a tight cockpit, and the risk of losing it if they had to bail out due to combat damage or mechanical failure. Makes more sense to leave it safe at their base, and wear it when walking around there. 

[raaay]

Hi  Bradley

 

I  cant  be a  100% sure but   the pilots who had a sword in the cockpit IMHO ,  were no plaining to bail out if you follow my logic !!

[IJASWORDS]

Hey Bruce, if I read Nick's interpretation on Warrelics an NCO Hanin-Kan or Ko-In would have the brown backed tassel. My source is from "long time" collectors who had this tassel on original NCO swords they had since WW2. 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 2/28/2019 at 10:48 AM, IJASWORDS said:

Hey Bruce, if I read Nick's interpretation on Warrelics an NCO Hanin-Kan or Ko-In would have the brown backed tassel. My source is from "long time" collectors who had this tassel on original NCO swords they had since WW2.

 

Thanks Neil. Not that they're wrong, either. The issue I tried to narrow down with Nick was that the order he found directing the Gunzoku to use the all-brown tassel just says they are to use it. But, where did it come from? Was it already in use by the IJA, and the Gunzoku were just added to the list of users? Or did this directive create a heretofore unheard of all-brown tassel? The order doesn't create a tassel, it simply tells uniformed civilians to use one. His answer was that there was no mention of an all-brown tassel in IJA uniform regulations prior to the 1940 revision.

 

While I'm aware that it's impossible to prove, with evidence, that something DOESN'T exist, I don't feel that simply using uniform regulations is full proof. It would take the orders/specs from the govt to the contracting community directing the production of the all-brown tassel (and the date it happened) to actually nail this one down.

 

So, to me, it's still possible that IJA officers, or in your example, late-war NCOs, were using these as well. But until we get some documentation to prove one way or the other, we're still dealing in possibilities.

[Dave R]

  On 2/28/2019 at 8:32 AM, raaay said:

Hi  Bradley

 

I  cant  be a  100% sure but   the pilots who had a sword in the cockpit IMHO ,  were no plaining to bail out if you follow my logic !!

[Mister Gunto]

Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark....oh, wait, nevermind. It already did....

 

Obviously, the Kamikaze weren't planning on bailing out. But from what I've read, many Japanese pilots, especially the veterans, weren't too enthusiastic about becoming part of the Divine Wind at the end of the war. Much of the Kamikaze were made up of newer recruits towards the end of the war. 

 

And think about it. If you were a pilot, flying along on a routine patrol or training flight, and your plane had a serious mechanical failure, would you ride it down to a pointless death? Or bail out to fight for the Emperor another day? 

[Dave R]

 With what is now known about so called Tanker or Crew mounts nowadays, I think the terms are less an accurate description of use, and more a handy shorthand for a smaller blade in field mounts. Dealers of course love the term, along with "ancestral blade" as they are good selling descriptions adding value to what are otherwise just decent enough blades refurbished for the war effort.

 

What I find very interesting are the markedly short blades, tanto length or only a bit longer in all leather covered mounts that turn up from time to time.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 3/2/2019 at 12:11 PM, Dave R said:

 

What I find very interesting are the markedly short blades, tanto length or only a bit longer in all leather covered mounts that turn up from time to time.

Do I recall that there were a rare few leather covered saya in the "old" days, but not the norm? Regardless, the leather on the tanto you mention is obviously new, as in WWII, though, which was a norm for refitting blades for the war. Seems like I saw a photo recently of a trooper with a leather covered tanto slung on his gear.

[Dave R]

 Generally Edo era leather covered saya and tsuka were lacquered to waterproof them, which includes the Same if it was meant for rough use in the field. Traditional Japanese leather was oil tanned, like buckskin, which meant that it turned into a wash-leather when soaked through. The removable foul weather covers were given the same treatment. They turn up from time to time on Ebay, and I have bought a few of them when they were cheap enough.. These pictures are of items actually in my collection bought from Ebay.

[Bruce Pennington]

Wow! Those leather items are hundreds of years old!?! A testament to the treatment products.

[Jareth]

Japanese SNLF/NLF did have tanks. Why romance the sword? Possibly it simply belonged to a short person!

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 2/26/2019 at 4:26 AM, IJASWORDS said:

I have pictured a paratroopers sword (yellow ito with paratroopers sarute), against the same length as a normal sword. I would suggest that carrying a sword of any length in a crowded plane, would cause havoc. And the sword was commensurate with rank, not every pilot, tanker or sub-mariner was entitled to a sword any way. The sword carriers in BaZZa's photo would be officers, with normal length swords, that wouldn't be taken in the plane where space and weight  is a premium. 

Many of the shorter swords came to be when the Government relaxed its minimum length requirement for family swords sold to the IJA/IJN. Officers that had desk jobs and were entitled to swords, often opted for the shorter sword.           

Neil

You seems have everything!Make me Jealous！

[Dave R]

 Regarding paratroopers and their swords.....

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice pic Dave! Too bad they’re all wrapped! Would be nice to see the sarute.

[Death-Ace]

Really love this discussion and the swords being presented! I've had three wakizashi mounted for the war.

 

The first was one in Edo Period mounts with a low quality "leather" (seemed more like pressed paper) cover for the saya. The nagasa was 22in, but was a real low quality koto kazuuchimono.

 

The 2nd was a Kashu Nagatsugu blade in a custom T98 koshirae with light green tsuka-ito and a bumpy laquered saya of the same color. The nagasa was 22.5in and a 5.5in ubu nakago, if I can recall. Fully enough, the blade was mounted like a katana, which gives the evidence of shorter blades mounted as such for appearance or other purposes.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21849-kashu-ju-fujiwara-nagatsugu-o-wakizashi-in-type-98-mounts/

 

My 3rd and only blade left is a Uda/Ko-Uda wakizashi with a 19.5in nagasa and 4.5in osuriage nakago. Appears that have been done either right before the war or during the end of the Edo Period. Funny enough, the slots for the kozuka/kogatana, kurigata, and kaeshizuno have perfectly fitted wood inserts to smoothen it out. The ashi is gone, but the leather cover and leather tab on the fuchi remain.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22994-militaria-show-wakizashi/

 

It is amazing what differemces there are and the wakizashi that have gone to war give nearly as much variety as their longer counterparts!

[nickm]

Really like your new acquisition Matt and absolutely love the idea of a ww2 themed daisho set.

[lonely panet]

Heres a short shin gunto,

 

Not a crew gunto due to tsuka length

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EXTREMELY-RARE-WWII-Japanese-TYPE-98-SHIN-GUNTO-SHOWATO-PILOTS-SWORD-KATSUMASA-/293025852789