Kantei Section For The Raffle "who Wants To Win A Nihonto"

[Guest Rayhan]

Hi Guys!

Here is the new thread.
Explanation thread is here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/26326-who-wants-to-win-a-nihonto/

Measurements and as follows:

The larger full pics can be downloaded here: Kantei 1     Kantei 2     Kantei 3

Kantei 1
Nagasa: 83cm
Sori: 2.6cm

 

Kantei 2
Nagasa: 68.8 cm
Sori:1.4 cm

 

Kantei 3
Nagasa: 68.2 cm
Sori: 2.3 cm

 

[Brian]

Everyone who has entered can place their bids in this thread. Only those who have paid their $30 entry fee/donation are eligible.
Please place 3 bids, one for each kantei.

[Stephen]

Doh! I thought we were doing one kantei!?!?

[Jean]

It is one kantei session with 3 swords ....

[Brian]

And remember that the winner is drawn at random...so you don't have to get them right to win, just having a go is enough.

[Alex A]

Only just noticed all this, when does entering close?

[Guest Rayhan]

Only just noticed all this, when does entering close?

October 10th, plenty of time Alex

[Blazeaglory]

Hello. So we basically are judging these blades by their different styles using research from different era's? Just verifying thanks

[Brian]

Basically trying to determine era --> school --> smith from things like shape, hamon, hada, filemarks, activity etc etc.
Books such as Connoisseurs  or Markus Sesko's Kantei books are invaluable here.
Couple of useful links:
http://www.shibuiswords.com/learningkantei.htm
http://naippe.fm.usp.br/arquivos/hobby/Real-life-kantei-of-sword-Part-1.pdf
http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/17-articles/

[Stephen]

and we post where?

[Blazeaglory]

Perfect! We post answers in this thread and have until October 10th

 

Time for research! Cya

[Guest Rayhan]

and we post where?

Post here on this thread for answers please:)

[Stephen]

never say i wasnt to first to jump in unknown waters

 

1

Shinshinto 

copy of ol masters

ko choji gunome  hamon

yokoyama den

Sukenaga

 

2

mid edo 

after kanbun

maybe genroku

suguha eyes dont tell me hada id guess itame

ikkashi tadatsuna

 

3

koto

o notare hamon

mokume hada

Heianjo Nagayoshi

 

ok laughter allowed ...and yes its cold in here!!

[Curran]

Is there an oshigata for #3?

 

As much as I focus on fittings, I don't want to embarrass myself too badly with sword kantei.

Every bit of information is going to help me if I am even to hit the target.

[Mark]

#1  looks Shinshinto someone working in Bizen Den so Korekazu circa 1860

 

#2  Looks Shinto maybe Yamato school. Kiju circa 1700-1720

 

#3  Appears Koto maybe late 1400's hamon is difficult to pick up, Shimada

[Surfson]

Here are my "guesses".  

 

1.  This is a very large sword and appears to me to be most likely relatively young - probably shinshinto, based on the yasurimei, which appears to have kesho, and is sujikai or o-sujikai. There is also no fumbari, which one might expect if it were a tachi.  Other clues to age are that it appears to be torisori, and has very little taper.  The hamon is a very precise choji midare. Base on the size, the uniformity of the hamon and the shape of the boshi, my guess is Sa Yukihide.  I considered Tairyusai Sokan as well, as he also made swords of this stature, but ultimately chose Yukihidedue to the size, the hamon and the boshi (as well as the fact that I found an example in a book on Munetsugu and Yukihide on Grey Doffin's website that has a similar example!).

 

2.  This is a joshun sword that to me has a kanbun shinto shape.  I was thinking Tadahiro 3 due to the suguha and boshi, but the yasurimei doesn't seem to support that call.  Echizen Yasutsugu 3 also seemed possible, but again the yasurimei doesn't seem right.  Although he is not most famous for working in suguha, the best guess that I can come up with is Echizen Tsuda Sukehiro.

 

3.  This sword appears to be koto, but shortened a bit.  It doesn't appear to have a heian or early kamakura shape to me, so I would put it either in late kamakura or early nambokucho.  My kantei powers are not good enough to learn much from the hada, but I think that I hallucinated some utsuri and even a hint of a sansaku boshi. So in the end, I am guessing Kagemitsu.  

[Surfson]

After making my posts I read the others.  Mark, I came close to making a call for Shimada in Oei for #3 also.  It's just when I started hallucinating utsuri that the wheels fell off.....

[Derek]

OK, I'm prepared to be way off here.....

 

#1 - Early shinshinto based on sugata and health of nakago.  Strong sori, very healthy blade.  Ubu.  Bright jihada, bizen, with some mino influence. Nice bohi, not cut down, imitation of older blade.  Maybe one of the early shinshinto bizen guys.....  Bizen Yokoyama Sukenaga.  Tenpo Era-1830

 

#2 -  Kanbun shape.  A little machikuri, Shinto.  Shallow sori, medium length. Jihada looks thin.  Hizen.  Later Tadayoshi school.......  Tadayoshi 4th Gen.  Genroku Era - 1688.

 

#3 - Old Koto.  O suriage.  Deep sori, bohi through nakago.  Tired jihada, and hard to see details as well as other two.  Nanbokucho.  Something makes me feel Samonji School, maybe a student of O-Sa......  Sadayasu.  Oei Era- 1394.

 

Cheers!

 

Derek

[Brian]

Going well guys. No-one will say anything bad about any bids. It is a good learning experience, and even better to read other's thoughts.
Btw, I do not know the answers either
With 4 tries so far, those guys have a 25% chance of winning a sword. Let's see what happens in the next few days.

[Guest Rayhan]

I knew it would be a Marine that entered the Kantei first, well done so far guys! For the others we have some great Kantei examples going on and keep them coming! Ganbatte!

[Mark S.]

Oh boy... as the old saying goes... "time to flop it out on the table and let everyone whack at it with a stick"...

 

Kantei 1 - Long blade with nice sori.  Kesho yasuri and condition of nakago point to Shinto/Shinshinto.  Choji midare hamon and boshi with midare komi and POSSIBLY a short kaeri based on oshigata (although I am inferring what is NOT actually shown).  I'm going with Shinshinto Osafune School Yokoyama Sukenaga or Sukekane working in Bizen tradition.  Mid-1800's. 

 

Kantei 2 - Shorter blade and shallow sori along with kesho yasuri point to Shinto/Shinshinto although location of mekugi ana might indicate slight shortening or machi-okuri?  Chu-suguha(?) with wide nioiguchi and some nie in hamon.  I'm going with Shinto era Tadatsuna II. Late 1600's

 

Kantei 3 - Appears o-suriage with deep sori.  Age of nakago and shape of blade point to older Koto.  Hard (for me at least) to get a lot of defined detail from photo, but think I see a combination of suguha and gunome hamon and mokume-hada (and am I imagining utsuri?), so just kind of going by feel on this one.  I'm going with Fukuoka Ichimonji (or one of the Ichimonji schools) but I am also going out on a limb and looking at the possibility of a No Sada copy of Fukuoka Ichimonji due to the whitish color of the jihada (although it could just be the photograph?).  EDIT (9/19):  As I keep looking at this blade, I am also seeing some possibility of Yamato Shizu, although I don't think the hada is correct.  I know in kantei, we are supposed to pick one and go with it  so I will still stick with my original Fukuoka Ichimonji, but then again I'm still learning too and just putting it out there.

[Ray Singer]

Sword 1 (appears Shinshinto Bizen, as others have said. The sword does not seem to have the tight nioiguchi and somewhat sparse hamon typically seen in Yokoyama work.)

• Chounsai Tsunatoshi (my first impression was Unju Korekazu)

 

Sword 2 (hamon seems very inconsistent in terms of the treatment of nie, and jitetsu does not appear as fine as typical mainline Hizen-to. I agree with Mark above that the sword has a Yamato feel, the hamon is reminiscent of Sue-Tegai work. I am less confident about this bid than others given the yasurimei. Monju/Shigekuni would probably be closest to Tegai in the Edo period but the sword does not look to be at that level).

• I will ignore the yasurimei, which points to a later machiokuri blade, and bid Tegai. (Previous bid was Echizen Yasutsugu)

 

Sword 3 (narrow shinogi-ji is typical of Soshu and Yamashiro, hamon is nie-deki with areas of somewhat wild highs and lows when adjusted in Photoshop. Coarse areas are due to worn ji, but default jitetsu appears to be a fine ko-itame.)

• Niji Kunitoshi

 

* Note: Edit to kantei 2

[Jussi Ekholm]

Well here are my guesses

 

Sword 1 - Koyama Munetsugu - Shinshintō

 

Size and hada combined with the state of preservation would point me towards shinshintō. Chōji-midare was popular during this period and many made it. One thing that would make guess Munetsugu against the others might be just due to pictures as bright nioiguchi is often listed as a point of his work. At least I am seeing it very brightly under the hadori in the upper portion of the blade. By reading kantei explanations by NBTHK it is easy to understand how close the worksmanship of shinshintō smiths who worked in Bizen tradition is.

 

Sword 2 - Mutsu no Kami Tadayoshi - Middle Edo

 

I do not have a clue about this one honestly. I think sword has been shortened as others before stated too. I don't really think the sword is exactly Hizen work but that is the feel I get every time I look at it. I am not too well versed in shintō swords so I might as well go with my first guess that is Hizen as I can't get it out of my mind.

 

Sword 3 - Rai Kunizane - Late Kamakura

 

This one I think is from late Kamakura period. I juggled back and forth late Kamakura & early Muromachi calls for date. In the end I just have a gut feel that this is a suriage sword from late Kamakura period. I think I am seeing ko-itame hada in most parts. I can't see too much under the hadori but I think there is lots of activity in hamon underneath the white. I am thinking the sword is from Yamashiro tradition but it is quite "bold" in hamon execution so I can exclude quiet schools & smiths. I tried to look from Yamashiro book by Tanobe Michihiro for possibilities while it is a great resource it didn't have "lower tier" Rai smiths included. As I think this is bold sword I would go with little bit less known Rai smiths and after browsing my own Koto database I thought that Rai Kunizane would be my pick.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

Here are my guesses:

 

Kantei 1:

The long nagasa and the sugata point to a Shinshinto blade.

The the bizen style with the gunome and the kesho yasurime with deep angle lead me to think it has be done by Korekazu.

 

 

Kantei 2:

For this one, I also think it is a shinshinto blade, from the Hamabe school.

I think to Toshinori due to suguha hamon with nijuba and the shape of the boshi. The Kesho yasurime seems match the smith work.

 

 

Kantei 3

Well, the harder one due to the missing oshigata.

Even if blade has been suriage, the sugata lead me in koto nanbokucho.

First impression was a Nio blade, but I think that hada looks more a Yamato Tegai one so this is my guess

 

Sebastien

[Vermithrax16]

Been struggling with #2 and #3 last couple nights. But time to put in my best effort. Eyes are tired from sword study! Been skipping all posts on this thread so not to spoil my effort, but can't wait to post and read what some others have made as attributions!

 

Kantei #1:

Late sword, shinshinto. The smith was clearly trying very hard to make a Bizen style work, and did very well. Wildly long nagasa did not really help in my study, but hada work and nakago held more clues. 

 

Submission: 7th Gen Unjo Korekazu

 

Kantei #2:

Shinto blade and at first pass my thought was Hizen for sure. After more looks, started to waver as the hada is not really what I would call good Hizen hada. After debate I felt the shingane areas coming through argued again for Hizen.

 

Submission: 2nd Gen Kawachi no Kami Masahiro

 

Kantei #3:

I am bad aweful at Koto kantei and this one was a black box for me. Early sword, maybe mid-late Nanbokucho? The only thing that registered to me as a hint was it looked like a Rai work, some smith in that line.

 

Submission: Echizen Rai Kuniyasu

 

 

 

 

[mywei]

Found 2 and 3 tricky. Would have appreciated an oshigata for 3!

 

#1. Good quality shinshinto Bizen. Inital thought was Koyama Munetsugu given the round yakigashira, but would expect more beefy looking blade. I couldn't decide between Naotane and Korekazu, but with this particular kesho yasurime I would go with Unju Korekazu

 

#2. Not confident on this one. Initial thought Hizen but wrong boshi and mainline Hizen did not use kesho yasurime which looks original to this sword. Hence Osaka-mono. Of these I would go with Tsuda Sukehiro although his yasurime would be finer with more cross-hatching I think.

 

#3. Even less confident with this one. Evidently a tired koto blade. It has Bizen vibes - I can see choji hamon under the polish particularly towards the monouchi. Cannot appreciate utsuri with this type of photo. I will stick my neck out and throw in Ko-Bizen and expect to be crucified. YOLO 

[Jean]

Too difficult :LOL

 

Kantei one : Shinshinto : Sekido Unju Korekazu. Difficult to say as a lot of Shinshinto smiths tried try to copy Bizen,

 

Pros: the Yasurime

Cons: the nioiguchi is not as thick as it could be and the choji hamon is less tight.

 

Kantei 2 : I won’t go for Tadayoshi school because of the yasurime. The yasurime is usually yoko or sujikai without any keicho yasuri. For the same reason, I shall avoid sue Tegai. I don’t know perhaps Kunisada.

 

Kantei 3 : picture is less good (too bright, less contrast), can’t see the kissaki, but I’ll go for Rai Kuniyuki

[Surfson]

Ray and Brian.  I assume that it's not too late to sign up, right?   Just pay the fee and you are good to go.  Also, as a reminder, your kantei guesses don't have to be correct, or even close, to win the sword.   It's only based on chance in the raffle afterwards.  Come one, come all - sign up and play!  Cheers, Bob

[Brian]

Bob, you have it 100%.
We can accept entries/contributions right up to the last day. Will be nice to see who was closest to the correct answers but the winner will be drawn at random. So really only $30 to lose, which makes this place run anyways.

[Stephen]

I think i will sweeten the deal for whom ever gets 100% on era, construction and maker. $100 will be sent to your PP account,

sent on my next SS deposit after winner announced which is forth wed in Oct. Yours to spend or donate as you like. Sorry only one, if its to much of a hassle to draw then i apologise for offer.