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Another Sword Asking For Help Please

bwanapete

By bwanapete
in Military Swords of Japan

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bwanapete Rookie

bwanapete

Posted
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I hoping for some help in identifying this as the characters don't look like the ones on the kanji pages, they seem very rounded and spurred? Wondering if this is a particular type of method of adding signatures to a sword, almost like a particular artists signature?

 

many thanks

Pete

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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MASATSUGU (正次), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Ōsaka – “Heianjō Okishiba Minamoto Masatsugu” (平安城 沖芝源正次), real name Okishiba Masatsugu (沖芝正次), he studied under his father Okishiba Yōkichi Masatsugu (沖芝要吉正次), rikugun-jumei-tōshō

 

 

not sure if this one or not, not the Hizen one but his Masatsugu is close to same

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Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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Pete,

 

The year is 1945. The kanji look different because they written in the Japanese equivelant to our Script writing.

 

The handle looks to have been recently re-wrapped, and the sarute (tassel loop) look new. Can't say if the rank tassel is original or a repro. Nice blade!

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

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Thank you Trystan

 

I really need to put down the cell and just look on big screen from now on. The texture on kashira looks to be same as fuchi. The tassle looks org the lighting makes the stitching stand out, pictures dont tell the true story, habaki has gold wash/leaf? and yes Bruce looks org too. Going to my room..lol

  • Like 1
bwanapete Rookie

bwanapete

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Grateful thanks for all of your help on this sword, I have much to learn about these magnificent pieces of history.

 

Would $2500 be a fair price to pay for this sword as this is what the owner is asking for it? He told me that it was probably worth close to $5000?? I have absolutely no idea as I cannot make sense of prices on Ebay and other auction and sword websites.

 

Many thanks

Pete

Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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I don't know the smiths. Brian and Stephen have a better feel for that. Some famous smiths can garner those prices, and some Shrine swords. But if he's not one of those, then Showa gunto are currently selling from $800 to $1,200. I would personally wouldn't pay over $900-1,000 considering the non-original (though high quality) replacement parts.

  • Like 2
Dave R Grand Master

Dave R

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 I do not like the fuchi-kabutogane, the stippling is a bit random,... and of course there was loads of variation in the wartime fittings. Blade and habaki look ok, but I am worried that the hamon has been "enhanced". Not a $5000 sword.

  • Like 2
dwmc Mentor

dwmc

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Agree with all of the above, maybe $800 - $1000 tops.

 

Having said this, there's really not much typical about the sword. The same looks rather new and white, suggesting recent rewrap, but on closer inspection, it does appear faded, staining from handling on the ito seems age appropriate, also damage around the mekugi ana is present.

 

As Dave R mentioned, odd dimpled fuchi and kubutogane. Spiraled seppa, copper looking ashi and koiguchi, different habaki from normal.

 

Oh yes. and that weird looking V stitch tassel. I'm definitely not suggesting the folks who consider the tassel as repo are mistaken.The photo of my tassel in my previous post is something I've been curious about for years. I have to say in Peters tsuka/tassel photo, the V suspension straps are identical to mine, however, the skirt? appears odd and missing blue twist threads. My tassel was attached to a Gunto I had purchased and about mid way down had a additional knot tied in suspension straps. I assume to shorten the over all length. The tassel in hand appears to be an upgrade type tassel, very supple , very well made, (possibly silk?) . Against my better judgement, I untied the additional knot,(big mistake), I'm sure the knot had been there since a least WWll. Almost immediately started coming apart, Hence damage seen in photo... So yes, these V stitch tassels I firmly believe are WWll era.

 

I would like to ask John, Sephen, Bruce, Dave R, and all knowledgeable others.  Could the koshirae and tassel adnormalities be due to construction in a occupied country, possibly Korea. etc...

PNSSHOGUN Grand Master

PNSSHOGUN

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Majority of Officers tassel should be made of silk regardless. I wonder if anyone else here has a tassel with this V stitching, not sure if it has been noted in any of the major reference books so far either.

 

The stippled Fuchi is common on swords with leather retention straps.

  • Like 1
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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Dave,

 

Agree with all of the above, maybe $800 - $1000 tops.

 

Having said this, there's really not much typical about the sword. The same looks rather new and white, suggesting recent rewrap, but on closer inspection, it does appear faded, staining from handling on the ito seems age appropriate, also damage around the mekugi ana is present.

 

As Dave R mentioned, odd dimpled fuchi and kubutogane. Spiraled seppa, copper looking ashi and koiguchi, different habaki from normal.

 

Oh yes. and that weird looking V stitch tassel. I'm definitely not suggesting the folks who consider the tassel as repo are mistaken.The photo of my tassel in my previous post is something I've been curious about for years. I have to say in Peters tsuka/tassel photo, the V suspension straps are identical to mine, however, the skirt? appears odd and missing blue twist threads. My tassel was attached to a Gunto I had purchased and about mid way down had a additional knot tied in suspension straps. I assume to shorten the over all length. The tassel in hand appears to be an upgrade type tassel, very supple , very well made, (possibly silk?) . Against my better judgement, I untied the additional knot,(big mistake), I'm sure the knot had been there since a least WWll. Almost immediately started coming apart, Hence damage seen in photo... So yes, these V stitch tassels I firmly believe are WWll era.

 

I would like to ask John, Sephen, Bruce, Dave R, and all knowledgeable others. Could the koshirae and tassel adnormalities be due to construction in a occupied country, possibly Korea. etc...

Well, Dave, now that you mention it, a closer look at the ito does show hand-oil staining/darkening. I'd say with the saya being standard IJA spec, it's not like any other PETA or Occupied Lands work I've seen. If it's all original, then I'd default to a custom-order arrangement. You see things like this on fittings for an old blade, I've just never seen such a customization on a showato. But, like we all know, the only thing certain about WWII Japanese showato that that there is almost nothing certain!

 

Concerning the tassel, we were discussing tassel standards on the Warrelics forum, and some of us started taking measurements and comparisons. I feel like there must have been many contractors making those things too, which injected variations is style, length, and quality as well.

 

Who knows?!

  • Like 1
Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

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A small update: I just saw this seppa on Warrelics, owned by Shamsy, on an old sword that was used during the war. It has the same edge-style like this one on this thread. Obviously older, where this one looks new. But might add some legitimacy to this one?

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  • Like 1
dwmc Mentor

dwmc

Posted
Posted

Majority of Officers tassel should be made of silk regardless. I wonder if anyone else here has a tassel with this V stitching, not sure if it has been noted in any of the major reference books so far either.

 

The stippled Fuchi is common on swords with leather retention straps.

 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Japanese-army-shin-gunto-sword-tassel-sword-katana-tsuba-armor-menuki/253812109954?hash=item3b18617282:g:ADUAAOSwOaBbTuHn#viTabs_0

 

Additional update: This appears to be another of the V stitch tassels. The seller in Osaka describes the tassel as rare, apparently, this may be somewhat true. However, I located the one above quite quickly in a very brief search.

 

Rather odd this V stitch variation does not appear in reference material. But as Bruce previously mentioned, "many variations" .

SteveM Grand Master

SteveM

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I think the year is 昭和十七年 (Shōwa 17), or 1942

 

And the signature using Japanese fonts and the original kanji is

以眞鉄正次鍛之

 

I like the looks of the mei as well. WW2 swords often use a very chippy, almost hastily-chiseled, stylized shorthand. The inscription on this sword has some echo of that, but it also uses a cursive style, and the end result looks very nice.  

 

I agree with the gents above. Not worth $5000, not worth $2500 (due to the sword furnishings being a mixed bag). But I have no reason to think the sword itself is fake, and so it belongs in the vast family of real military swords with bits assembled from various swords, and what looks to be new ray skin on the handle. So, yes about $1000 feels right.

This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

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