Dutch iron?

[Tavroch]

I came across this katana: http://www.jp-sword.com/files/blade/yasutsugu/yasutsugu.htm

It says:

The blade is signed "Yasutsugu omote Nanban tetsu oite Bushu Edo Saku Kore", which means 'The sword was made by Yasutsugu, living at Edo in Musashi Province, using Southern Barbarian iron'

I was wondering: could this mean this blade was made using Dutch iron?

The period is about right.

Since I’m from The Netherlands I might be interested for this reason.

Does anybody know this seller?

Does anybody know if this smith could have been using Dutch iron?

Any records that might point in that direction?

Any opinions on the blade itself?

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

FYI; The following article includes Yasutsugu and Namban-Tetsu.

http://tokensugita.com/NT.htm

[Tavroch]

Thank you very much Koichi Moriyama; that was indeed a highly informative article.

I continued my search on Yasutsugu and Namban Tetsu

and I now think there might be a good chance

that this blade was indeed made using Dutch steel.

Haven't heard from the seller yet though.

I'm very interested in what he can tell me about the blade.

 

Can anyone please comment on the blade in question?

Authenticity, quality, pricing: anything?

 

And the seller: jp-sword?

Searching the forum gives me the same results as searching for e-sword:

nothing. Must have something to do with the "-" in the name.

[Stephen]

Hello. My name is Jinsoo Kim, a process metallurgist of steelmaking and light metals. I am a Japanese sword enthusiast and very interested in metallurgical view of Japanese swordmaking based on my academic background. I wish you have wonderful time during your visit to this website.

 

Education

 

Ph.D. in Materials and Metallurgical Engineering, McGill University, Canada, 2004

B.S. in Materials Science and Engineering, POSTECH, Korea, 1997

 

Rob the above is from his site, im sure you can trust Jinsoo, is/was a member here but since he moved back to his homeland we have not heard much from him...maybe hell drop in this time. He knows nihonto very well.

 

BTW to the NMB

[Tavroch]

Thank you Stephen.

I did a search for his name on the forum just now, but all I got dated from 2006,

so I was a bit confused. But I'm glad you think he's reliable.

 

I know I'm babbling an awfull lot for a new member

and Im sorry for that, but hey: I'm really enjoying myself.

Weird thing: having fun already after becoming a member just this morning!

Must be something right about this forum.

I hereby thank you all for this great welcome!

[Brian]

Yep..Jinsoo is a highly respected member of the Nihonto community. But as Stephen said, last we heard he moved to Korea and dropped out of the scene, then posted a single message a long time ago saying hi, and he was getting his site up and running, and then nothing again for a year.

Make sure you are able to get hold of him and that it is indeed him. If so, he's a knowledgeable and decent guy. Would be very interested in hearing if he is active again.

 

Brian

[Tavroch]

Thank you Brian.

And now that I have your attention;

can I please ask for your opinion about these two blades I'm eying:

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/wakizashi/07559.html

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/0810_2020syousai.htm

I'm a bit at a loss about the seller of the second blade: e-sword.

Can't seem to find any info on them.

(See my post here: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3268)

 

Sorry, got to go, more later; meals ready.

I thank you in advance.

[Hermes]

Hi Rob, i am not a expert and new here as well, but i can say this about your picks here, you have very good taste IMO, i like the top Tanto as well as the Katana, i would wait for the experts of course and will wait to see what the experts say about the bottom picks Ware, as well what looks like a Crack on the bottom of the Nakago?

 

James

[Paul Martin]

Hello,

 

You should contact Lody Duindum of Token Sugita/Token Taikai in the Netherlands. He is responsible for the Nanbantetsu project and can answer all your questions. Also, he has swords of reputable quality for sale. I am sure he can help you. He is close to Amsterdam.

 

Best

[Tavroch]

Hello James,

 

Thank you, and yes: a crack in the Nakago.

Maybe I can get the price down for this.

But it looks like it's been there forever, so how bad can it be?

Bit of a problem though when you would want to sell it again over time.

If you'd want to keep it, and maybe have Kosihirae made for it,

that would be another thing.

Although I admit I am new at this, and if this was going to be my first Nihonto

I would probably sell it again in a while to replace it with one I fancy more then.

But maybe this is the one that'll stay with me for the rest of my life: "My First Nihonto"....

I do hope nobody sneaks up on it until I've made up my mind.

What do you think of the top 'Wakizashi'?

At least I've read opinions on Aoi-art.

Do you know anything about e-sword.jp?

[Jean]

Hi Rob,

 

captain Brian and his crew (Stephen, Guido) welcome you on board :D :D :D

 

(I am sure they won't disagree as Stephen has already done the welcome part))

 

If you hesitate between the Kanemoto and the Kanekage, please don't go directly to the Kanemoto for the following reasons ;

 

- Suguta typical for late Muromachi (probably post 1550)

- Typical Kanemoto lineage style (sanbonsugi showing) kodai generation as stated

- and above all : ubu Nakago

 

Free advise : Don't buy any Muromachi shortened sword (there are always exception but not for Kodai generations). So many swords were forged during this period that suriage blades are not high rated

[Tavroch]

Thank you Jean; I am honored by your advice.

As I am sure you are aware, I am not an expert.

 

I like the Kanemoto because at first glance it looks a bit flashy,

but if you look at it closer (and longer) it seems rather subtle:

The Hamon is of course obscured by the Hadori polish (Kesho togi?),

but I am assured by Mr. Kazushige from Aoi-art

that the Hamon is very visible under the right lighting conditions.

This effect of the subtly present/obscured Hamon is one of the things I like about this blade.

 

Would you please instruct me on the points you mention:

 

"- Suguta typical for late Muromachi (probably post 1550)"

Why would this be a negative feature?

 

"- Typical Kanemoto lineage style (sanbonsugi showing) kodai generation as stated"

By this you mean that it was made by one of the later generations of the Kanemoto lineage?

So it is not as high rated as one made by the first generation; I understand that.

But the subtly visible/obscured Sanbonsugi Hamon

is one of the things I like about this blade as I mentioned earlier.

 

"- and above all : ubu Nakago"

This is where I am in need of instruction: how can you tell?

Just because of the second Mekugi-ana?

The Hamon seems to end pretty much at the present Hamachi

and the Bo-hi seems to end where it should also.

If you extend the Mune-line it ends awfully close to the butt of the Nakago.

I guess your experience tells you otherwise,

but is there any chance you could be wrong about this?

 

Can I deduce from your last remark that you think it's overpriced?

Or that it would be difficult to sell again without losing too much of the investment?

 

So what is your opinion on the Kanekage?

Especially: what do you think of the crack in the Nakago?

It is only visible on one side.

There is also some loose forging visible on the opposite side near the Hamachi.

Are both of these flaws called Ware?

What about the strange nicks in the top Mekugi-ana,

do they affect the value of the blade?

Do you think this is an ubu Nakago too?

 

And again: what is the reputation of the seller: e-sword.jp?

 

Please correct me where I am wrong: I am very eager to learn.

[Tavroch]

@ Paul Martin:

 

Sorry for my late reaction.

Thank you for the info; I am already aware of the Namban Tetsu Project,

but I will try to contact Mr. Duindam as you suggest.

Maybe he, or someone else involved with this project,

will be interested in the Yasutsugu I mentioned in my first post.

Thank you again, and I will keep you informed here about any news on this.

[Jean]

CAUTION - CAUTION - CAUTION

 

 

I WAS MEANING GO FOR THE KANEMOTO AND FORGET THE KANEKAGE

 

Sorry, I did not check my post

[Tavroch]

Ooph... okay... that both reassures me and confuses me more.

Would you like to repeat your first post, but now the way you intended?

And please do comment on my remarks in my answer if you would be so kind.

[Jean]

Hi Rob,

 

After the caution I try to answer your question.T

 

I like the Kanemoto because at first glance it looks a bit flashy,

but if you look at it closer (and longer) it seems rather subtle:

The Hamon is of course obscured by the Hadori polish (Kesho togi?),

but I am assured by Mr. Kazushige from Aoi-art

that the Hamon is very visible under the right lighting conditions.

This effect of the subtly present/obscured Hamon is one of the things I like about this blade.

 

Would you please instruct me on the points you mention:

 

"- Suguta typical for late Muromachi (probably post 1550)"

Why would this be a negative feature?

 

Refer to my Caution post, everything is to be read at the opposite

 

It is a positive feature and not negative

 

"- Typical Kanemoto lineage style (sanbonsugi showing) kodai generation as stated"

By this you mean that it was made by one of the later generations of the Kanemoto lineage?

 

Yes, quite regular with good togari

 

So it is not as high rated as one made by the first generation; I understand that.

But the subtly visible/obscured Sanbonsugi Hamon

is one of the things I like about this blade as I mentioned earlier.

 

 

Good

 

 

"- and above all : ubu Nakago"

This is where I am in need of instruction: how can you tell?

Just because of the second Mekugi-ana?

The Hamon seems to end pretty much at the present Hamachi

and the Bo-hi seems to end where it should also.

If you extend the Mune-line it ends awfully close to the butt of the Nakago.

I guess your experience tells you otherwise,

but is there any chance you could be wrong about this?

 

As everything is to be taken at the opposite of my previous post :

The Nakago is ubu despite the 2 mekugi ana - all your remarks are right

 

Can I deduce from your last remark that you think it's overpriced?

Or that it would be difficult to sell again without losing too much of the investment?

 

It is not over priced, but you could try to get from Tsuruta san a small discount. If the sword is on consignment, he shall probably decline.

 

 

So what is your opinion on the Kanekage?

Especially: what do you think of the crack in the Nakago?

It is only visible on one side.

 

The Kanekage as been shortened, not good for an investment, the crack is a drawback, even if not fatal

 

There is also some loose forging visible on the opposite side near the Hamachi.

Are both of these flaws called Ware?

 

Yes, the blade is a bit tired compared to the Kanemoto

 

What about the strange nicks in the top Mekugi-ana,

do they affect the value of the blade?

Not much compare to the suriage nakago and that the blade is machi okuri

Do you think this is an ubu Nakago too?

 

No the Nakago has been shortened, nakago jiri is kiri

 

 

Now, I must live you to prepare my seppuku for the horrible lapsus I have made in my previous post

PS: I know of 3 or 4 NMB members who will be only too glad to assist me

[Jean]

My first post has intended :

 

Hi Rob,

 

captain Brian and his crew (Stephen, Guido) welcome you on board :D :D :D

 

(I am sure they won't disagree as Stephen has already done the welcome part))

 

If you hesitate between the Kanemoto and the Kanekage, [please go directly to the Kanemoto for the following reasons;

 

- Suguta typical for late Muromachi (probably post 1550)

- Typical Kanemoto lineage style (sanbonsugi showing) kodai generation as stated

- and above all : ubu Nakago

 

Free advise : Don't buy any Muromachi shortened sword (there are always exception but not for Kodai generations). So many swords were forged during this period that suriage blades are not high rated :)

 

 

In fact, 2 months ago, I hesitate in buying between a Kanetomo and this Kanemoto , both on Aoi Art website, they were both at the same price.

 

Finally, I choose the Kanetomo

[Tavroch]

Thank you very very much Jean!

I'm afraid I contributed to the confusion a bit myself by mixing up ubu and suriage;

sorry about that.

It all makes a lot more sense now.

 

Don't commit Seppuku yet please!

I might be in need for your advice again in the future.

But if it comes to that: we train Kaishaku regularly in Iaido-class

 

I think this settles it for me:

I sent Mr. Kazushige an email asking him to hold it for me.

Any advice on payment methods to their Japan based bank?

 

B.t.w: can I mention you in my emails to Mr. Kazushige?

 

Another question comes to my mind:

What do you think of having a spartan set of Koshirae made for this Kanemoto for display?

Would you happen to know any reputable Koshirae makers here in Europe?

Or do you think this would be a total waste of money?

I can't help trying to imagine what this blade would have looked like in it's first set of fittings.

 

Again: I cannot thank you enough; I'm in your debt.

[Jean]

Hi Rob,

 

Don't mention it, I was really ashamed of myself.

 

Concerning Koshirae, I had asked Tsuruta san if it was possible to make a Koshirae with some fittings he had :

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/fittings/6200-6250/06249.html

 

Here is his reply :

 

We checked the Kanetomo to fit your koshirae.

It can make the koshirae.

In that case, the total koshirae fee is 250,000 Yen

(F06249 is 150,000 Yen and another koshirae fee 100,000 Yen).

The koshirae making, it takes about 4 months.

 

Of course, you can mention my name (Jean LAPARRA - France) - I am an old customer :D

[Jean]

BTW, I forgot

 

Don't commit Seppuku yet please!

I might be in need for your advice again in the future.

But if it comes to that: we train Kaishaku regularly in Iaido-class

 

After checking, there is no more urgency in committing seppuku, sorry

[Tavroch]

Oh come on... don't tell me I've been training for nothing!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

I wonder if this nakago is ubu...

 

 

 

And i can't see the start of the nakago.

[Tavroch]

Would you care to expand on that please?

[Tavroch]

To get back to the topic,

and especially @ Paul Martin:

 

I promised to keep you updated on the Namban Tetsu Project.

Well, I contacted Mr. and Mrs. Duindam,

and made them aware of the Yasutsugu I discovered at Mr. Jinsoo Kim's site.

They told me the existence of this Yasutsuga was new to them.

They also told me a Katana and a Yari by Yasutsugu are already available to the Namban Tetsu Project.

So maybe we did help the Namban Tetsu Project a bit.

I wish I were a rich man; I would certainly buy this Yasutsugu and donate it to them.

(Hint, hint, say no more, know what I mean, notch, notch...)

If you haven't already, I recommend all of you to read about their project.

It's got some interesting twists and turns, like:

how the hell did this Namban Tetsu get to Japan in the first place?

And how about "De Liefde"? Didn't I hear the name of this boat somewhere before?

Does the name William Adams ring a bell? You know: the one the TV-series Shogun was based upon...

And where did the military supremacy of Ieyasu come from again?

All of these questions and many more will be answered in the next episode of...

But no kidding, read this: http://www.tokensugita.com/NT.htm

[Tavroch]

Another update on the Namban Tetsu Project:

Mr. Jinsoo Kim answered my email and I relayed his answer to Mr. and Mrs. Duindam:

(I hope it's allright to quote Mr. Jinsoo Kim here.)

The blade was mounted in Kyu-gunto before and rusted much. It was polished by the Mukansa in Japan and was born again with splendor beauty.

Anyway, you can see the result for yourselves:

http://www.jp-sword.com/files/blade/yasutsugu/yasutsugu.htm

[Stephen]

Rob

 

keep in mind Namban Tetsu is not just Dutch steel could be Portuguese

[Jacques D.]

Rob

 

keep in mind Namban Tetsu is not just Dutch steel could be Portuguese

 

 

And others :D

 

http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110001457670/

[Tavroch]

Thank you, but I'm aware of that,

and I think the people from the Namban Tetsu Project should be aware of that also.

I'd be highly surprised if they weren't.

[Guido]

Thank you, but I'm aware of that,

and I think the people from the Namban Tetsu Project should be aware of that also.

I'd be highly surprised if they weren't.

Your posts so far didn't indicate that you took that into consideration. Having joined just three days ago, you might not have realized yet that it's considered bad form to make snappy remarks at a senior moderator who tried to be informative and helpful. I trust you have now.

[Tavroch]

@ Mr. Schiller:

I am very sorry; I didn't mean to offend anyone.

 

@ Stephen:

I am sorry if I have offended you; this was not my intention at all.

I assure you that I am grateful for any comments or advice you have for me regarding Nihonto.

I didn't realise my last remark would come across the way it obviously did, I'm sorry.