Jump to content

Opinions

BIG
 Share

Recommended Posts

Jean

Jean

Posted
Posted

Chin Cho is a personnal opinion, Peter, so it does not mean that the sword will go Juyo. In fact have a look at the statistics: how many Naotane’s tanto have passed juyo, and how many Shinshinto tanto have passed Juyo.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Rayhan

Guest Rayhan

Posted
Posted

Do not assume sayagaki is a pre-requisite to juyo, ever. If you have a solid blade, tokubetsu hozon papered you are at the initial criteria for submission only. If you want to establish the viability you should look at all the juyo examples of this smith, carefully and diligently compare your sword to the ones that have passed and make a decision for yourself.

 

There are plenty of swords with grand sayagaki that reside at tokubetsu hozon and will never pass to juyo. That doesn't make them bad swords.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
BIG Grand Master

BIG

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Yes, but I think the quality of the tanto, the horimono is extraordinary. The masame/itame hada is fantastic ( not seen in my awful pics)

and so the hamon. To bad I'm not finding the orginal Nobukuni tanto. ?!

 

Best

 

PS and for the shinsa, no doubt..as time goes by..

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jean

Jean

Posted
Posted

Rayhan,

 

I shall add that should NBTHK has some consistency with their Juyo criteria, there are blades which should not have passed Juyo and others which are not and should be...:) all depends on sessions, but it seems that the historical importance of a blade is less and less important in the decisions. You can see that there are a lot of Juyo blades which sell at a lower price than TH ones or even Hozon ones. This shows the limits of Kanteisho. Kanteisho level does not make the market. What would be the price of a Hozon Awataguchi daito compare with some Kozori Juyo?

 

Edit to add: in fact, all depends on your collecting interests. No doubt that Peter’s Naotane should sell at a higher price that some Juyo, that is why I shall say, don’t focuss too much on kanteisho level. A lot of people will have their blades certified at Hozon level, they know what they buy.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Rayhan

Guest Rayhan

Posted
Posted

Jean i do agree with you that Awataguchi at Hozon sell at higher prices than Kozori blades but now we are comparing apples to grapes. When i am looking at juyo I compare a Naotane to a Naotane not any other comparison. This sword has a nice Horimono and a very suitable Nagasa. It also has a terrible Nakago for a ShinShinto sword. In the event that collectors want the Juyo level then they are willing to pay for that but those that ignore paper are very experienced (or not) and know exactly what to look for. You'll close the pool on how many collectors are willing to do that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

Posted
Posted

@ Peter: Regarding your blade & Juyo: Condition. The Horimono is wonderfuöl but has suffered from repeated polishing. This could be a problem. The more recent a sword the better its condition has to be. What is tolerable on a Kamakura blade isn't on a Shinshinto blade.

 

@ All: Tanobe Sensei does have a cheap oppinion like anyone else may have one. But his oppinion is in my humble view currently simply the best (= most valid) in the world. I would prefer his Sayagaki / Oppinion over any set of papers and would rather spend 2k on food and woman than on a sheet of paper. But it is a free world and anybody is enabled to spend his money on what they prefer to. A Juyo paper does not make a sword any better than it is - it just raises the price tag. A good polish can make a sword look better by bringing out its beauty. A bad polish can destory it for good. But a paper only is an oppinion affecting the value such as analyst's oppinion may affect a stock and thus the company value while the company still remains the same ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Rayhan

Guest Rayhan

Posted
Posted

@Luis I think companies in similar industries with similar market caps have ratings for very good reasons and the same is swords made by the same school or smith. I am in agreement that polish is very key but there are other aspects that are needed for a sword to meet Juyo or Tokuju. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

Posted
Posted

Another thought:

 

This is a beautifull sword and I can well understand you intention to submitt it for Juyo hence your curiosity what other think.

 

Howeverwith the given images it is not really possible to provide a carefull oppinion.

 

My basic thoughts are that you have a beautifulll TBH bladew with Tanobe Sayagaki. So why does it not have Juyo papers?

 

1. Because it was not submitted

1.1 Because people thought it had no chance

1.2 Because someone saw no need to

 

2. Because it failed

2.1 Because it is inapropriate

2.2 Because on that very day the competion was too high

 

In the end it boils down to you just haing to giving it a try. Good luck Peter! I keep my fingers crossed for you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

Posted
Posted

@Luis I think companies in similar industries with similar market caps have ratings for very good reasons and the same is swords made by the same school or smith. I am in agreement that polish is very key but there are other aspects that are needed for a sword to meet Juyo or Tokuju. 

 

@ Ray: I do not want to go in detail on this as it is offtopic but I do not agree. One of my stocks lost 8% after a bad review on one day. The company that gave the review made its bids on a faling values at the same time and is now under criminal investigations. Anything should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Look at Tesla. Up and down only based on Elon Musks latest tweet bla bla ...

 

A stock market value is what people think a company is or rather what i will becpme and may highly differ from both the current and future state. Nobody can predict the future as of now. And if you belive some fancy aloghorithm can you like will fall victim to the next Ponzy sheme.

 

Napoleon said only an idiot never changes his oppinion. But changing an oppinion all the time does make someone a genius. Hence the oppinions and accordinghly stock value will change constantly on companies

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Rayhan

Guest Rayhan

Posted
Posted

@ Ray: I do not want to go in detail on this as it is offtopic but I do not agree. One of my stocks lost 8% after a bad review on one day. The company that gave the review made its bids on a faling values at the same time and is now under criminal investigations. Anything should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Look at Tesla. Up and down only based on Elon Musks latest tweet bla bla ...

 

A stock market value is what people think a company is or rather what i will becpme and may highly differ from both the current and future state. Nobody can predict the future as of now. And if you belive some fancy aloghorithm can you like will fall victim to the next Ponzy sheme.

 

Napoleon said only an idiot never changes his oppinion. But changing an oppinion all the time does make someone a genius. Hence the oppinions and accordinghly stock value will change constantly on companies

I think this part should move to the Izakaya but...Tesla shares are erratic because the company itself is a dark horse. They have a larger market cap as large as Ford and GM having delivered nowhere near as many vehicles (they have a massive backlog of orders though) and so it is based on future confirmed orders, tweets have a role to play with very few investors, and when you're investing in the first man to envision reusing the rocket and succeeding, I think that also plays a part. I think financial analysis is key to stock trading with many additional elements. FB recently lost massive market cap not based on earnings but on political and legal issues, GDPR, etc, that you could have seen from a mile away coming like a storm. A stock market value in a reliable company can be tracked, no doubt. But yes opinions do shift and one should be flexible. 

 

This sword in question is a good sword, i said that before and if submitted I wish Peter all the luck possible to pass, we should all be happy when peoples swords pass, it keeps this community going forward. Sayagaki is very valuable and I try to get (or purchase) swords with the sayagaki too. I am just saying, it is part of the sword now and not the key to a pass or fail on a sword. Tanobe sensei is the leading opinion on swords but the heads in the NBTHK will have their say. Peter should note the health of his Nakago will go against him, this is something everyone should prepare for in submissions to Juyo and many times is overlooked as is the Kasane etc..

 

@Peter, Submission will cost some money and time so yes, if you feel it in your heart of hearts you must try always, with anything. I am simply saying in the world of Naotane, there are elements against this particular sword that may or may not affect its Juyo status. Good luck and I hope you get the Juyo, always.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

Posted
Posted

> I wish Peter all the luck possible to pass, we should all be happy when peoples swords pass, it keeps this community going forward.

 

I wish Peter lots of luck, too and keep my fingers crossed.

 

As far as Juyo passing goes I have somehow a feeling there is too much bias towards the importance of Juyo where people oversee the beauty of many swords that will never go Juyo due to being an extraordinary work of some smith with less reputation. I think there is much prejudice / bias that may not necessarily help the community as a whole, especially when looking towards beginners who may not feel welcomed due to sort of an elite thing thinking.

 

Peter, if you submitt please let us know the result. Good luck! No matter what the result may be, this is a very nice and desireable sword!
 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest Rayhan

Guest Rayhan

Posted
Posted

For the beginners (we are all beginners here in my opinion as it is a lifetime of learning, like kendo or Iaido) Juyo is something to aspire to if you are going from Hozon up (or no papers up) but it is like Luis says a monetary thing too, one with the funds can be a beginner with a Juyo sword. the skill set is taking the sword up through the ranks, for that one needs to kiss a few frogs first. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheGermanBastard

TheGermanBastard

Posted
Posted

By beginner I mean someone who just gets into a new hobby.

 

Infact with so many nice swords at very low prices available right now and mabye even better a great selection of translated litarature e.g. by Makus Sesko it is a great opportunity to start in this passion.

 

Again it is offtopic but it is a damm pitty that there are so few new people getting attracted by this great hobby.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Surfson Grand Master

Surfson

Posted
Posted

Peter et al.  My sense of this tanto is that the horimono was intentionally made to appear as it might if it were an original Nobukuni blade with 600 years of use and polish.  In other words, the horimono was made to look like it had been polished down for centuries.  Do I have that right?  Since this is a Naotane, I assume that it has only been polished two or three times at the most?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites
BIG Grand Master

BIG

Posted
  • Author
Posted

And Robert, it seems that Mishina Sensei did the second polish. And you are absolutly right, Naotane made a true copy incl. the 3 mekugi ana, the tang, etc. And yoshitane made a true copy of the horimono left over some hundred years ( evt. more skills on that )and Mishina sensei polished it to a true copy.

Excuse me for that twilight pics..

Do not find the original Nobukuni, may be it sleeps well without any internet in Japan. So there are only two people to answer the question !!

 

Best

Link to comment
Share on other sites
This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one, unless your post is really relevant and adds to the topic..

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
 Share
Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...