Nakago Mune Marks

[Mark C]

Hi Everyone,

 

Anyone got ay ideas as to the meaning of or seen these marks before please?

 

Many thanks

 

Mark C

 

[Fuuten]

Fwiw to me it doesn't appear to be something done by the smith.

[Mark C]

I thought assembly marks but that doesn't make sence.

 

all the seppa and the tsuba are marked with the number 0650

 

 

 

[lonely panet]

its the blade a showa-to? or a sword made during the militarization  of Japan ??

 

IMHO they can appear on non-traditional blades in kyu style mounts

 

but need more pics

[Stephen]

My guess GI added... Roman numerals?

[Tanto54]

Dear Mark,

 

They are assembly marks and the symbols on the nakago are augmented Roman Numerals where X = 0.  Therefore it reads X V I V X or 0650.

[ROKUJURO]

In Roman numerals X is 10.

[Fuuten]

It looks more like someone placed his initials between two X's to me (X V N X).

[Grey Doffin]

And that is XVNX, not XVIVX.  I don't think N is a Roman Numeral so no idea what this is supposed to be.

Grey

[Stephen]

Leaning toward Axels theory. Still in GI added corner.

[Mark C]

Hi All,

 

I knew there wouldn't be a straight forward answer and I will never know what it means although you guys have given me a few possibilities.

 

I don't believe it's a Showa-to as there is no stamps, Two mei signature of Masayuki (as shown in Military swords section)

Although the polish isn't great it has sort of wild Hamon with Nie and sunagasi.

 

Sadly I can't make out the Hada.

 

Anyways, Many thanks for your thoughts, greatly appreciated.

 

All the best

 

Mark C

 

 

 

[lonely panet]

heres a example of a non-tradidion sword.

 

visable hada, the numbers on the mune are a bit hard to see.

 

yours does look good,  and considering masayuki is recorded as only making gendai.

 

so im not help at all with your example 

[Tanto54]

Arrrrgh!!!!  I am reminded of the old saying "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink..."  Yes Jean, I know that in traditional Roman Numerals, X = 10.  However, Roman Numerals do not have a zero, so this craftsman is using an "X" for "0".  That's why I said "augmented" Roman Numerals.  If you look at wartime tosogu it often has assembly marks that are Arabic numerals (0, 1, 2, 3, etc.) on some items and Roman Numerals (X, V, I, ect.) on other items of the SAME sword (and the numbers match).  The Arabic Numerals (0, 1, 2, 3, etc.) are on things that can be easily stamped like tsuba and seppa.  However, other items like habaki and swords tangs often have Roman Numerals.  That's because it was easier for the craftsman to file "augmented" Roman Numerals (which are straight lines) than Arabic Numerals some of which are curvy.  Some of the craftsmen used "augmented" Roman Numerals because they wanted a single digit for "0" so they used "X" (10).  While I will agree with Grey that the "IV" looks like an "N" lets apply Occam's Razor.  This set of fittings has the numbers 0650 in Arabic Numerals on all four seppa which can be easily stamped (I'll bet that same number is on other fittings related to the nakago too).  The filed markings on the nakago mune (which the seppa, tsuba, habaki, etc. would be made to match) look like  "X V N X" but if you separate the first leg of the "N" it is an I & V.  Then it would read "X V I V X" which would be 0650.  Isn't that just too coincidental not to be correct?

 

Here is a link to another post on this Board where this type of "augmented" Roman Numerals were used. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23543-pet-dragon-solves-faux-roman-numeral-mystery/?hl=%2Bnakago+%2Broman+%2Bnumerals

 

[BIG]

May be philosophie.. https://books.google.de/books?id=LT3cbdplNx4C&pg=PA482&lpg=PA482&dq=xvNx&source=bl&ots=sUb5CLlhW6&sig=lArtGE-Z1RIsTmFA8scQK5ZfHpk&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiF9sGS0cjcAhUN6qQKHbTRD_s4FBDoATAEegQIAhAB#v=onepage&q=xvNx&f=false

 

Best

[ROKUJURO]

George,

interesting theory. Your thoughts may be correct but I have a problem believing that a set numeral like 10 (X) should be interpreted as 0 by a user who obviously knows the Roman system. But there may as well be that coincidence.

   

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.