Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[Bruce Pennington]

Very sad to hear. Scumbags are an eternal part of our humanity. Just painful to have to deal with them in our day & age and in our fields of study.

 

I'm going to keep this one in the study, but note the controversy.

[Bruce Pennington]

Sad news from Nick Komiya at Warrelics. I guess since Mantetsu-to are where the money is today in WWII gunto, that is attracting the criminal element:

 

"Late last year, the association of Nihontoh smiths petitioned the government for subsidies to support and preserve the tradition of Japanese sword -smithing, which otherwise they claimed to be a quickly dying skill in Japan. They warned further that soon there will only be "made in China" Nihontoh.

 

I did not take their last warning seriously, but if they are making fake Mantetsutoh, China is a likely source and the warning starts to make serious sense.

 

On the other hand, I did a Google search in Japanese on fake Mantetsu, and discovered that Japanese collectors are also onto the possibility of Mantetsu blades being faked since 2015 or so. A post claimed that the author started to entertain doubts when he noticed two Mantetsus were approved for a permit on the same day in consecutive numbers, striking him as too much of a coincidence and that a sudden surge in Mantetsu supply in the market is observed . His theory is that perhaps already registered Mumei Bizentoh (having similar characteristics to a Mantetsu) blades are getting fake Mantetsu mei added, in this case, in Japan.

 

Anyway collectors do seem to have good reason to be on alert over Mantetsu blades."

[vajo]

So it is very importend to compare hada and hamon with doubtless swords.

[PNSSHOGUN]

I view any Mantetsu with obvious Hada or non Suguha Hamon to be fake until conclusively proved otherwise.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks to Ontario_Archaeology for this find on a Japanese auction site https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/w307428001/detail#googtrans(ja|en). Claims to be carried by a Col Nakagawa on Peleliu; FULL HAMON. It's the second one I've come across recently with wavy hamon, and both are Spring '41's. I've got the inscription posted over on Translation Assistance, so I'll update if significant news comes from it.

 

As always, I welcome your thoughts. I'm aware Mantetsu made some custom blades, but these wavy hamon blades generate a bunch of suspision about gimei jobs on otherwise unsigned nihonto to drive the sell price up.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another Gimei from whoever Komonjo sources his listings from.

[David Flynn]

John, you're wrong about the Hada.  I have seen Koa Isshin, with Mokume, Masame and Itame. And they are all genuine.

[vajo]

I was false. I compare the Nakago, the yasurime and the mei with different source. That swords looks like a very well made signed Mantetsu.

I think it is a real Mantetsu sword in perfect restaurated condition.

[PNSSHOGUN]

John, you're wrong about the Hada.  I have seen Koa Isshin, with Mokume, Masame and Itame. And they are all genuine.

Do you have any pictures of those by chance? It would be a welcome change to see authentic ones, especially if they have dates.

[BANGBANGSAN]

 

Bruce

I found some photos for another Mantetsu had similar signature in style and position，it also papered.It says belongs to General 石原莞爾  Kanji Ishiwara.Seems quite a few these sword with newly registered paper pop up in Japan this year.

I think there are goup of Japanese doing this on Mumei blade ,just try to fool collectors.

[Brian]

Definitely a syndicate doing this regularly. Not sure if they are refinishing and signing mumei swords, or having them made. Either way, I am sure there are investigations ongoing.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

 

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same look. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

 

Brian,

I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg

John,

 

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

 

Brian,

I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.

[BANGBANGSAN]

John,

 

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

 

Brian,

I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg

All these sword wrote 佩刀(Carried by)not very convinced.

[reeder]

John,

 

Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels.

 

Brian,

I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph. 191B2472-1591-4E37-80AF-E88373FE7290.jpeg

Those are from polishing...

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Brandon. I just learned that on a similar discussion on the Translation Assistance thread. They said these "signature" marks by the polisher have been used for centuries. I'm not a nihonto collector, so I haven't come across them before (or noticed them if I did).

 

I guess the problem is the same, though. Even if the polisher was a current one from today, not WWII, it doesn't prove or disprove, by itself, the age or legitimacy of the blade. If the marks are unique to a particular polisher, I think it adds some building evidence that a particular seller in Japan is turning mumei blades into Mantetsu blades and having them polished by his favorite polisher. They all have the same look, polish, and attribution characteristics.

[vajo]

Bruce this blade is very well forged. The signature looks perfect for me. I know that you look for authencity of ww2. But i really think that is a genuine mantetsu sword.

[Brian]

I don't.

[vajo]

It looks really not bad but i'm not an expert.

 

[Brian]

It looks done yesterday

[reeder]

These polisher marks are not specific to any polisher. It tells you nothing more than it was polished.

 

Sword is not correct.

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce this blade is very well forged. The signature looks perfect for me. I know that you look for authencity of ww2. But i really think that is a genuine mantetsu sword.

It looks done yesterday

I'm firmly on the fence (though wavering to fake). The mei and serial numbers are as good as any Mantetsu out there.

 

New- I first thought "well, the polisher would have cleaned the whole thing, that's why it looks new." I checked my polished Mantetsu, and while he shined the nakago, there is patina still imbeded in the kanji cuts. Soooo, either the one in question was cut recently, and no patina, or the polisher REALLY cleaned the nakago - UNKNOWN.

 

We have a sample of 2 (maybe 3), but both the current ones looks identical and too new. I'm saving this one like I did the last one - "under suspicion".

 

I would love to see (assuming fakery) one come out with an identical serial number to an existing one in the database. But, there were approx. 38,000 of these made, with a database of 160, so the odds are in their favor right now.

[Bazza]

It looks done yesterday

... and I think I see "chatter" on the file strokes, i.e., not a trained metal smith??

 

BaZZa.

[Bazza]

Bruce, here is more grist for your mill.  The attached photos are titled "Bazza's...jpg", but in fact the sword belongs to a friend of mine who has at last sent me photos of his Mantetsu.  I don't have any other photos so can't comment on condition, but the tang suggests it has had a hard life.  So in essence this is a contribution to your survey.

 

BaZZa.

 

     

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce, here is more grist for your mill.  The attached photos are titled "Bazza's...jpg", but in fact the sword belongs to a friend of mine who has at last sent me photos of his Mantetsu.  I don't have any other photos so can't comment on condition, but the tang suggests it has had a hard life.  So in essence this is a contribution to your survey.

 

BaZZa.

Thanks, great one! It's my first and only "No" serial number! And yes, the nakago looks quite worn! I don't see how a nakago could get so worn under a tsuka. I almost want to think it was previously heavily rusted and has been cleaned, but "cleaned" would look shiny and buffed, where this still looks old and just worn. Interesting one.

[16k]

Hi Bruce,

 

As I’m in the process of buying a Mantetsu, I’m looking at many websites for info and stumbled upon this sword:

 

http://artswords.com/one_of_the_rarest_imperial_japanese_late_type_44_gunto_090718.htm

 

I don’t think it’s in your collection yet, if it is, sorry for the misleading info.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Hi Bruce,

 

As I’m in the process of buying a Mantetsu, I’m looking at many websites for info and stumbled upon this sword:

 

http://artswords.com/one_of_the_rarest_imperial_japanese_late_type_44_gunto_090718.htm

 

I don’t think it’s in your collection yet, if it is, sorry for the misleading info.

This one is in the data base already.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks JP, I appreciate it! But it is one I have already.

[16k]

Well, sorry then.

[16k]

Also found that one. You probably have it too but worth to see if only for the bullet impact.

 

https://japanesesword.com/archived-pages/2017/7/28/mantetsu-to-in-34-pattern-shin-gunto-mounts-hit-in-the-fuchi-by-bullet

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Jean-Pierre, I also have that. I posted it on the Battle Damage thread as well: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23378-any-shin-gunto-with-battle-scars/page-2?hl=+battle%20+damage

 

I’ve pent a few days scouring the web for these. About the only ones I won’t have is something newly posted somewhere.