Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[vajo]

Komonjo is on the way to become the biggest "Fake Seller Price" on ebay. This guy is total crazy in my opinion.

Every week one or two doubtless big gendaito names faked. And he sell it for a high price. That will have no good end.

[Stephen]

yet he sells a Hiromasa, (no the meis not faked) for under $900....you have to know what your looking at, not all his sales are rubbish!!!

[Brian]

I thought that Hiromasa looked brand new, just like many of his modern made, newly signed pieces?

[vajo]

Yes there are some good one on his store.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok guys, thanks for the thoughts on the Showa22 gunto. I’ll put it in the database.

 

John, the one you cite looks good except that the typist apparently doesn’t know how to write Japanese numbers! The wavy Hamon is rare but a known variant.

 

I think the general takeaway is that the Mantetsu “standard” we thought was an unvarying monolith has its own variations in workmanship like all the other factories.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Bruce you need your eyes checked! The blade has complex Hada, Hamon and the Mei is extremely suspect!

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce you need your eyes checked! The blade has complex Hada, Hamon and the Mei is extremely suspect!

John,

 

This is why I like to ask for opinions. I have almost NO background on nihonto/gendaito. I have recently seen 2 Mantetsu, though, with wavy hamon, and read discussion where it is strongly suggested that Mantetsu were water quenched. After seeing a couple custom order Mantetsu's, I just have to wonder if a blade like this one could have come out of their factory. But if you say it's impossible, I would defer to your expertise. I've done some side-by-side colages of the mei, and see some tiny differences here and there, but no more than from other legit blades. What bothers me most is simply the seller's claim that the number is "233" when it's the worst job spelling the "33" I've ever seen!

 

On another note - why would the seller ruin such a beautiful blade by faking a Mantetsu mei? Is it because a mumei blade is only going for $1,200 where he can get twice that price for a Mantetsu? From the comments I'm seeing about this guy, I suppose it's exactly what he'd do.

 

For now, I'm filing both this one and the Showa22 blade in a "Possible Fake" file.

[PNSSHOGUN]

My best guess is it's supposed to be a rare, unknown and unique Mantetsu never seen before. The seller keeps his descriptions very short and offers nothing but what the photos show, which is smart because he never claims the swords are genuine. Whoever the seller has doing his Gimei is good, and capable of replicating many Showa era swords quite well. The sword itself makes no sense because the entire point of the Mantetsu was to marry extremely pure steels together to create perfectly distributed core and skin steel using the rod and sleeve method. The presence of complex Hada defies this principle completely. I have no doubt Mantetsu swords were water quenched as it would be necessary to achieve the quite high hardness levels of the Hamon. From memory it is much more difficult to achieve that hardness with oil quenching. The Hamon is also radically different from the other examples of Notare Hamon Mantetsu we have seen earlier in this thread. The Sori is also wrong, along with the proportions of the Nakago.

 

This leaves us with a couple of options left:

 

A: An entirely undocumented, special order traditionally made sword made by the smiths at the SMR factory and then oddly signed as a normal production Koa Isshin

 

B: A fake

 

I will wear it on the face if wrong but I wouldn't touch that sword with a 20foot Koa Isshin signed pole.

[IJASWORDS]

I agree with John, should be NO hada due to the purity of the steel, and the process used to form a soft rod inside a harder outer tube. 

[reeder]

I have seen and posted Mantetsu-to with very nice hada, usually very early ones. If you read old threads, Mantetsu swords were often mistaken for older blades. I also know of a few wakizashi length Mantetsu-to and a Mantetsu with wavy hamon. From what I’ve seen, early Mantetsu-to were nicer than later swords.

 

Again, the early one showa22 has up is good in my opinion. From what I understand it was at the San Francisco sword show and was owned by a well known collector. My friend said he saw it in hand and it was a very nice, original piece. He also said the seller mentioned it was polished by Benson.

[Ooitame]

Posted today https://www.aoijapan.com/katanako-a-issin-mantetsu-saku-syowa-kinoe-saru/

[Bruce Pennington]

Posted today https://www.aoijapan.com/katanako-a-issin-mantetsu-saku-syowa-kinoe-saru/

Thanks Eric! I generally ignore this site because they usually don't post pics of the serial number, but this one had it! I appreciate it. Though I can't make out the number. Katakana "I" the "3" or "2", then the rest is too blurry.

 

anyone want to take a stab at this number?

 

Quite a beautiful blade, BTW!

[Stephen]

Maybe 326 im sure last is roku..first two blur together

[IJASWORDS]

A 1944 at 5000 bucks? That's getting pretty pricey for a Mantetsu! 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Stephen. I'll go with that unless someone else has a better idea.

 

Neil - No kidding! But it's clear someone spent a couple thousand on the polish, so they've likely added that to the 3,000 Mantetsu price. The Japanese sites seem to sell at higher prices than we see elswhere.

[IJASWORDS]

Hold on to your Mantetsu swords, looks like good investment material! 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The price may be due to it being a registered non-traditionally made blade in Japan and considerably rarer to encounter than our market. All the Mantetsu listed by Japanese dealers tend to be a fair bit higher because of it.

 

Another thing to note is I thought they stopped the Koa Isshin mei at a certain point and switched to the shorter "Mantetsu Kore o Tanzō"?

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

 

The way I read that discussion is that there were certain years each of the 4 mei appeared, or began being used, but that didn't mean the previous mei stopped completely.

[Stephen]

What did recent Showa22s sell for?

[Ooitame]

Thanks Eric! I generally ignore this site because they usually don't post pics of the serial number, but this one had it! I appreciate it.

You are most welcome Bruce, glad to help.

[Bruce Pennington]

Aoi Japan graciously send me the original picture and with the added clarity I can see the top kanji is a 5! It could even be 556, or 526!

[BANGBANGSAN]

Aoi Japan graciously send me the original picture and with the added clarity I can see the top kanji is a 5! It could even be 556, or 526! 9C96FC7A-A038-482E-A4F4-C6122DAB243B.jpeg

Looks like 五二六 to me.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks again guys. I think we’ve sliced this one as tight as we can. I appreciate the help!

[Stephen]

Mantetsu up on Yahoo

 

for your numbers Bruce

 

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/j543928998/detail#googtrans(ja|en)

[vajo]

Very nice one Stephen. 

[Stephen]

Restored by good hand? or just presten mounts?

[vajo]

I don't know, but it looks very good. I like the color and the fittings. Looks origin to me. 

On the other hand the sword looks never used. Could be restored or it was all the time in the closet. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Great example on ebay: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WW2-Japanese-OFFICERS-SWORD-WITH-SCABBARD-SIGNED-KOA-ISSHIN-DATED-GENDITO-MINTY/401690194846?hash=item5d8699f39e:g:y6EAAOSwkjJcQ5a4:rk:4:pf:0

[Bruce Pennington]

Mantetsu up on Yahoo

 

for your numbers Bruce

 

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/j543928998/detail#googtrans(ja|en)

Thanks Stephen, that’s a beauty and one I didn’t have! The fittings look original to me but I think the blade was recently professionally polished.

[Bruce Pennington]

Updates:

 

Over 140 blades documented. Still less than .5% of the total number of blades made, so analysis is almost silly at this point. But, still almost half of the katakana used were in the "A's". Over 110 of them were "Spring" which might mean they were putting "spring" on regardless of actual season (although there are several "autumns" in '42). The earliest '38s and '39s had a "winter" and several "autumn", so it seems they began using actual seasons.

 

The "lines" of serial numbers in each year:

39 - 4

40 - 9

41 - 11

42 - 7

43 - 18

44 - 5

45 - two kanji on 1 blade

 

4-digit serial numbers are found in '42,'43, and '44.

 

"Nan" stamps start appearing on '43. "Ren" stamps are mostly '44, with 1 known in '43 (so probably began late '43). Ohmura specualates these come from the Nanman Arsenal (Japanese name for the Mukden factory). It is my theory that these indidate that Mantetsu was supplying unfinished blades to Nanman just as they were supplying them to the Tokyo arsenal (as revealed by Nick Komiya). The dates line up perfectly as the order Nick found was dated 1943. Another interesting tidbit on these, is there are a couple of them (I only have picture of 1) with a "I" below the Ren. It seems to be the "rail" emblem from the center of the SMR raliway stamp, missing the circular "M" normally around the "I". Pure speculation, but could this be indicating the blade came from SMR but not made or finished by Mantetsu? Ohmura believes Mantetsu taught Nanman how to make blades the Mantetsu way, but he states that he doesn't know if Nanman was actually making them.

 

More work to do. Latest version 1,5 attached.mantetsu serial numbers (1).docx