Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[Bruce Pennington]

Good Morning Bruce, 

   Just FYI there's an odd 1939 Koa isshin for sale on Ebay.  The nakago is squared off and it has two mekugi ana ?? The ebay number is 323558019109.

    

Good luck on your Mantetsu research,  Tom Maurer

Thanks Tom! I sent him a message and he said he’d look tonight for the serial number.

[Stephen]

Have we ever seen a Mantetsu with railroad logo located there?

[Bruce Pennington]

Have we ever seen a Mantetsu with railroad logo located there?

I honestly haven’t actually seen that many to say Stephen. Ohmura’s example has it an inch over the mekugi ana, but his doesn’t have the Koa as high as this one.

 

It does seem like the initial years of production of any Type gunto has a bit of looseness in quality control and standardization.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here are the pics of the '39 we are talking about, since the fleabay link will go inactive years from now. The seller is very responsive and sent the attched pic of the nakago mune, which HAS NO SERIAL NUMBER! It is a flat-back mune, like those found in Type 3 mounts but is in combat saya with Type 94/98 tsuba. But it does have double mekugi ana, so maybe it was at one time mounted Type 3. I don't see why the nakago jiri was cut off, or shortened, as that is not the norm for Type 3 nakago. An Odd-ball. Pure spectulation - maybe the mune was round originally, and lost the number when it was flattened and the jiri was cut short.

[DRDave]

Wish he had shown the entire nakago mune.

 

 

[vajo]

Bruce the Tsuka looks short to me. The seller says it is 26 cm. The nagasa is over 67 cm. I have no idea why it has a second nakago ana on this place. But it remembers me on old katana which have a second one in this position for a cutting test. I'm sure it was never in a type 3 koshirae. I'm out of money and could not bid on it. But i think this is a very nice sword. The pictures shows many to me.

 

A silverfoild habaki on this time shows above quality in my eyes.

 

 

Nice Hada and Hamon

[Bruce Pennington]

Wish he had shown the entire nakago mune.

Yes, I saw that too and asked him. He says nothing there. And actually if you zoom closer it seems they are just knurles/knobs in the metal surface and not a number.

[jason y]

Yes, I saw that too and asked him. He says nothing there. And actually if you zoom closer it seems they are just knurles/knobs in the metal surface and not a number.

I can provide better pictures..

[jason y]

Better pictures...

[Bruce Pennington]

‘Jason, good to see you here! Thanks for the expanded view of that. Although one might think it raises more questions then it answered!

[PNSSHOGUN]

I do not believe this is an authentic Koa Isshin Mantetsu.

[IJASWORDS]

To be honest, it has worried me since I first saw it. But I hate being critical without seeing it in the hand.  

[Shamsy]

It still looks like a nice sword irregardless.

[vajo]

The yasurime fits to Koa Isshin

[Bruce Pennington]

I do recall a discussion years ago about an appearant fake Mantetsu for sale (haven't looked for the thread), so it's not out of the realm of possibility. I like the kanji style, it appears identical to standard Mantetsu writing. Unlike Chris, the file marks are the only thing that really bothers me. I've posted one from Ohmura's site, a '38, and it's marks are perfect Mantetsu. And actually, one would expect the early blades to be more exacting than, say, a '45, as they were still in their prime and touting their superior product.

 

I wondered if the kanji were imprinted OVER the rust, which would indicate a recent faker, but the rust does appear in the depths of the kanji cuts on the rusty side of the nakago. So, I'm going with original

 

I also took a close look at the railway stamp. At first, it appeared that the circle was a full cirlce, which would indicacte a fake, but on closer examination, it breaks properly at the top and bottom of the "I".

 

The lack of serial number is bothersome, however, it could be covered in corrosion, or as Chris suggested, this blade could have been used for testing, or cutting, or who knows what, and therefore didn't have a contract/serial number.

 

Executive summary: Like the kanji, stamp, and blade; don't like the file marks, lack of serial number, unusual nakago jiri and ana. My vote is legit Mantetsu with strange/unknown history. But hey, I could be wrong!

[vajo]

Bruce you doing right. Every sword has to judge for itself. If there is any doubt no buy. I did not want to buy it because i search for other swords. So I'm full with your conclusion. There are to many questionable things. 

[jason y]

Imo this is a real Mantetsuto, i have been collecting Gunto for about 12 years and probably i had seen at least 50 mantetsuto in my hand.

Not trying to say i know a lot about them but i do believe my eyes at some point.

What ever the conclusion is,,,  it is all up to buyer to make purchase  it or not but i will be guaranty this sword to be authentic, which mean if buyer bring it back with fair mount of prove after review in person that this is gimei then i will refund the original purchase price and it would be for life time guaranty.    

 

I also collect rare Mantetsuto and i have one that has gunome hamon, i will post some pictures here later.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Imo this is a real Mantetsuto, i have been [/size]collecting Gunto for about 12 years and [/size]probably i had seen at least 50 mantetsuto in my hand.[/size]

Not trying to say i know a lot about them but i do [/size]believe my eyes at some point.[/size]

What ever the conclusion is,,,  it is all up to buyer to make purchase  it or not but i will be guaranty this sword to be authentic, which mean if buyer bring it back with fair mount of prove after review in person that this is gimei then i will refund the original purchase price and it would be for life time guaranty.    

 

I also collect rare Mantetsuto and i have one that has gunome hamon, i will post some pictures here later.

 

And having it in hand can tell way more info than simple pictures ever can. I’m keeping it in my study, thanks!

[Bruce Pennington]

This has been discussed on other threads, but as this one is turning into All-things-Mantetsu, I'd like to add it here as well.

 

Nick Komiya, on Warrelics, posted an order from 1944, requiring the Dalian Mantetsu factory to supply 5,500 unfinished blades to the Tokyo 1st Arsenal (in addition to their own quota of 6,500 finished blades!). Sporter90 ovserved that this probably accounts for the presence of the "W" stamp on some Mantetsu blades. He also proposed that the Ren and Nan stamps on some blades may mean that Dalian was supplying the Mukden and Nanman Arsenals with blades too.

 

I had been assuming (there's that dangerous word!) that Mukden/Nanman had simply been placed over Dalian as quality control inspectors, but it wouldn't make sense that 2 arsenals had authority over a factory. So, I think Sporter's idea is more logical - Dalian was probably supplying unfinished blades to them as well. No documentation to prove that, though.

 

found on page 4 of this thread: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/very-unusual-konan-essei-mantetsu-713654-4/

[Bruce Pennington]

Looking for some help/opinion on this one. Our beloved Showa22 is selling this on fleabay. His reputation alone should be enough for me to reject this as legit, but the blade and file marks both look like Mantetsu work. The nakago is too clean for a '38, as claimed, but then we know Showa22 cleans blades. Comparing the mei to Ohmura's '38 and another '38 I have pics of, is inconclusive as all 3 are different from each other. The Dalian stamp is close and easiest to fake. The "N" of the serial number is EXACTLY identical to the other "N" number I have. I don't like how his showa kanji are scrunched over to the far side.

 

Another problem I have is the flat nakago mune. My experience, so far, is that flat mune were made for Type 3, Rinji model fittings, but this is in Type 98 fittings (Ok, we already know Showa22 re-fits all sorts of fittings) but if you look at the seppa and tsuba, they have flat-topped holes for the nakago!

 

Does ANYONE have a Type 98 with flat-topped nakago mune and appropriately fitted seppa and tsuba? That would help in my study of the issue, along with trying to decide what to think about this gunto!

[Stephen]

He does run into real deal. Just need to be informed to know when to pull the trigger....if i was checking id be asking you. Lol

[Bruce Pennington]

Oops, I don’t collect many IJA gunto. My 4 are Mantetsu, a chromed fullered one, and two Contingency models. I just learned that blade nakago are normally flat on the mune, except the Mantetsu!

 

AND I should have done some research first. I just found I Mantetsu blade went back and found a ‘38 N 206 and it’s set up in Type 98 fittings AND has a flat mune. It seems the rounded mune must have started at a later date.

[Dave R]

 Interesting, Mantestu have a non-flat Nakago-Mune? Very odd indeed. Are you sure about that.

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting, Mantestu have a non-flat Nakago-Mune? Very odd indeed. Are you sure about that.

Ha! It’s all I’ve been looking at for the last few months. I’m on my phone but I’m posting a pic I have available., along with a flat. You should be able to see the difference.

[BANGBANGSAN]

 Interesting, Mantestu have a non-flat Nakago-Mune? Very odd indeed. Are you sure about that.

 Dave,You can check my post on Page 2 #58 reply for Mantetsu's non-flat Nakago-Mune.

[Bruce Pennington]

True, and after re-scanning the thread, most of the mune pictured are rounded.

[reeder]

I don’t see any issues with this one. 26 1/4” nagasa, suguha, large pierced tsuba, cat scratch Habaki, everything you would expect on an early Mantetsu-to. Compare the nakago-Mune to other 1938 examples. We know the signatures changed from year to year, why would it not be possible for nakago shape? A simple google search of “Mantetsu sword 1938” provided enough examples to show the 1938 swords had a flat nakago-Mune.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not everythng Showa sells is suspect, this one doesn't appear to have been molested in any way.

[IJASWORDS]

Looks like it was made yesterday. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Here's an undoubtedly suspect Koa Isshin: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SA1236-Japanese-Samurai-Sword-IJA-Army-Gunto-Koa-Isshin-Mantetsu-65-5-CM/132884190044?hash=item1ef083d35c:g:-bAAAOSwa1ZcDrMs:rk:31:pf:0