Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington:

Bruce:

I’m trying to figure out the difference between number 3 and number 6 in the chart below in practical terms. Both Ohmura and Richard Stein note differences, however they do not provide examples. Do we have any examples of the differences between Koa Isshin and Mantetsu-to that we can look at?

Thank you,

 

 

From Ohmura:

The sword which Mantetsu made is classifiable into the following three sorts.
1 The blade before being named "Kōa Issin". This blade has only Mantetsu's trademark stamp in a Tang.
2 A blade with "Kōa-Issin" Mei named the Kōa-Issin sword .
3 A blade with the stamp of the "Nan" of a Nanman Arsenal, and the stamp of "Ren" of a Nanman Arsenal Dalian factory. 

There is no Mei of "Kōa Issin" in this blade. The blade made in Nanman Arsenal from the middle of 1943 is seemed. The difference in these three sorts of blades is not known. 

From Richard Stein:

Many swordsmiths were involved in the production of Mantetsu blades and used the "Koa Isshin Mantetsu" mei, hence it is important to judge each blade on its individual merits, not just on its signature. 

[Bruce Pennington]

John, I don’t know where Richard Fuller got his information for that chart. I simply don’t believe number six. I will send him an email and ask him where that statement came from and see what he says.

 

I have never had a Nan Ban Mantetsu in my hands, so I’ve never been able to actually compare the two.  I personally don’t believe there’s any difference in any of the three versions of the blades he discussed. They simply just changed what they wrote on them.

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

I have never owned a Mantetsu and know very little about them. I would like to know if the Mantetsu blade measurements vary much? The reason I ask is that I think I have accidentally come into possession of a nice set of Mantetsu koshirae and was wondering what the chances of them fitting a random Mantetsu blade were?

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Bryce, how exactly are you sure this was for a Mantetsu? The only specific variant I'm aware of has a very distinct Sarute barrel area and paint colour on the fittings. The only reason I ask is that your Koshirae doesn't appear to have this and also looks to have a Mon, something very rarely found on Mantetsu swords.

 

You can see it quite clearly on this Koa Isshin from artswords.com

 

 

 

[Bryce]

G'day John,

I am not sure at all. I am just basing this on the fact that koa isshin mantetsu's appear to have a rounded back to the nakago and the tsuba and seppas on my koshirae are made to accommodate a nakago with a rounded spine. I haven't seen this feature on any other blades. I have never handled one, so I could be wrong.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Interesting idea, Bryce.  I only have 1 and the tsuba/seppa set was missing on it when I got it.  Maybe some of the guys with more than 1 like @BANGBANGSAN can check theirs to see.

 

To your question, I've only had 2 in-hand in the past, but did compare them.  A '39 and a '41, and the blades identical in shape and size.

[BANGBANGSAN]

In addition to the Sarute barrel mentioned by John, the Mantetsu Daren(滿鐵大連裝） mount also has a unique Tsuba.

 

 

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

Here are a couple of sets from a 1941 mantetsu from AOIJapan and a 1943 from Artswords.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Good examples, Bryce! They both have the rounded corners in the blade hole like yours.

[Bryce]

Can anybody else provide information on mantetsu blade measurements and how much they vary?

Cheers,

Bryce

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Bryce, some photos comparing two Mantetsu together years back with noticeable differences to Sori, Nagasa and blade width. Unfortunately any measurements are long lost.

 

 

 

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce,

A friend picked up this Mantetsu blade (no fittings). Here are the markings for your records.

Mune 'U' 704 dated spring 1942.

Hope this is of use,

Regards

[Bruce Pennington]

I love every one!  Thanks George!

3 hours ago, george trotter said:

Hope this is of use,

 

And for the record, this is the 350th Mantetsu on file (mine anyway)!

 

Attaching the latest Mantetsu chart.

kiipu-mantetsu serial numbers (rev1).docx

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce,

I found a Mantetsu rubbing in my "box of odds and ends" - forgot I had it.

Tang is dated 1941 spring and has the mune mark/no of RE 71.

I can't find very many of this RE on your list, so may be of interest?

Regards,

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, george trotter said:

RE 71.

I can't find very many of this RE on your list, so may be of interest?

Right, thanks George, good one!

[PNSSHOGUN]

A very strange Koa Isshin on Aoi, it does not appear to be authentic. Others can be the judge: https://www.aoijapan...army-sword-mounting/

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

39 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

A very strange Koa

John,

If it is the mei that bothers you, I took a look at other '42s on file.  Seems there are two 'styles' so maybe there were a couple of nakarishi (is that the right word?) cutting mei.

 

Majority have this look                  But others have a similar look to the AOI one above

                         

 

What has always bugged me about AOI, is they rarely post photos of the serial number!

[Kiipu]

Hi John, that marking of 満鐵作 was only used in the 28th to 30th series.  There are indeed a handful of Mantetsu tachi mei; but one can count them on one hand.  However, the tang profile looks off to me.  Also, why would someone in Japan get a Mantetsu polished?

[Guest Simon R]

I also agree with John.

The mei looks like it's been recently carved and then had an iron blackening chemical (readily available from Tokyu Hands) applied. I've used this chemical on cast iron and it produces the same 'slightly grey' patina.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Also note the Nakago-jiri shape, Nakago length and Yasurime - all radical departures from other Koa Isshin (including the variances above).

[Bruce Pennington]

Maybe that’s why they’re not posting the serial number!

[Bruce Pennington]

OK!  Ready for this?!?! A REAL SMR Koa Isshin KAMAKAZI DAGGER!!!  We can know it is real because is says "kamakazi" on the habak! HA! It even has a serial number on the mune for authenticity.   Found on this Guns.ru thread.

 

 

Update: I was shocked to see the serial number is correct for 1942 - "NO"　ノ26!!!  I'm still not buying.  The stamped number on the habaki button and artificially blackened nakago is classic Chinese fakery, not to mention the horrific kanji work.

[Kiipu]

Matt, I do not think I have this one recorded yet.  Can you tell what the nakago mune markings are?  FYI, it is an army contract blade and has the yamagata "M" partial inspection mark.

*SUPERB KOA ISSHIN MANTETSU* WWII Japanese Samurai Sword SHIN GUNTO WW2 KATANA

@mdiddy

[Ed]

Bruce, 

Here is another Mantetsu for your files. Picked this up a couple of weeks ago. Serial number starts with the Hiragana character "TO". TO99

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, Ed said:

"TO". TO99

Thanks Ed, didn't have that one!  Safe to assume it was in standard Type 98 fittings?

[Ed]

10 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Ed, didn't have that one!  Safe to assume it was in standard Type 98 fittings?

Bruce, Yes type 98.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

On 7/30/2023 at 2:56 PM, Kiipu said:

Matt, I do not think I have this one recorded yet.  Can you tell what the nakago mune markings are?  FYI, it is an army contract blade and has the yamagata "M" partial inspection mark.

*SUPERB KOA ISSHIN MANTETSU* WWII Japanese Samurai Sword SHIN GUNTO WW2 KATANA

@mdiddy

@mdiddy Matt, any chance you have photos of the serial number on this one?

[mdiddy]

@Kiipu @Bruce Pennington

 

Here is the mune marking. Yall got lucky this one was requested to hold and ship later.

 

As an aside, it's better if you request this information from me earlier in the week that one is for sale and hit me up through my email or through eBay as those requests generally get worked sooner.

[Bruce Pennington]

Sweet!  Thanks Matt!  Have an U 704 on file already, so this U702 was right close by on the assembly line.  Love it when that happens!  

[Kiipu]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Have an U 704 on file already, so this U702 was right close by on the assembly line.

 

ウ七〇三 while @george trotter has reported ウ七〇四.  U703 is an army contract blade with a yamagata "M" inspection mark.