Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[SteveM]

昭和癸未＝1943 (not 1944)

 

羊≠未　

Different kanji for the same word, only the second one is used when expressing years using the Chinese zodiac system.

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, John C said:

1. RA 766, Spring 1944

2. YA 710, Autumn 1942

3. Unk 125? (see pic), Winter 1939

Thanks John, glad to have another researcher on the team!

 

I agree with @SteveM, the 766 is a 1943 blade.  With that in mind, the kana is more likely a FU　フ, not a RA.  With random marks, scratches, and corrosion a FU and RA can easily be mistaken for one another.  So, I'm logging this down as a 1943 FU 766.  Also, @John C - does he say whether it is a Koa Isshin?

 

2. I do already have the YA 710 on record.

3. The 125 is a HO like Thomas said, and is already on file too.  But your bringing it up has caused me to discover that a ?122 I have on file from a poorly posted oshigata, is actually from this HO 125!  So, @Kiipu and @BANGBANGSAN, I'm deleting the "?122" in the unknown column of the 1939 year.

[John C]

Guys:

My apologies. I must have an older version of the list. The serial numbers are not on the copy that I downloaded. Would you be able to direct me to the latest version?

 

Regards,

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

Check your PM's on that.

 

I didn't realize that there might be others wanting to track the progress on the chart.  I suppose I could post the latest on a regular basis, like quarterly maybe.

 

Here's the current one:

kiipu-mantetsu serial numbers (rev1).docx

[Bruce Pennington]

Came across this Spring 1944 Mantetsu (partial view of REN stamp), no serial number available.  It's on a Worthpoint post of an old expired eBay sale.  Note the gold-painted saya.  I've added a chart at the end of the Mantetsu Serial number Survey to categorize the MRS swords we've found.  I have 12 now on file.  Revised chart attached.

 

 

kiipu-mantetsu serial numbers (rev1).docx

[Bruce Pennington]

This photo may have already been posted, but I'm too lazy to scan back through 33 pages of this thread to find out!

 

From @BANGBANGSAN

"This photo was taken at Mantetsu sword factory front gate, kanji on the left says 研磨外裝場（Polish&Fitting Factory), on the right, says 刀劍製作所（Sword Manufacture Factory)

[Kiipu]

Document

極秘　Gokuhi　Top Secret.

昭和一九、一、二五　1944-01-25.

南満陸軍造兵廠　Nan-Man Rikugun Zōheishō　Nan-Man Army Arsenal.

 

Title

附表第二　Fuhyō Dai-Ni　Attached List Number 2.

昭和十八年度兵器整備ニ関スル民間工場利用計画

Shōwa jū hachi-nendo heiki seibi ni seki suru minkan kōjō riyō keikaku

Fiscal Year 1943 Private Factory Utilization Plan for Ordnance Maintenance

Note: The 1943 fiscal year ran from 1943-04-01 to 1944-03-31.

 

Headers

工場名　kōjō-mei　factory name.

生産品目　seisan hinmoku　production item.

単位　tan’i　unit.

数量　sūryō　quantity.

 

Body

満鉄大連鉄道工場　Mantetsu Dairen Tetsudō Kōjō　SMR Dairen Railway Workshop.

Note: Mantetsu 滿鉄 is an abbreviation for Minamimanshū Tetsudō Kabushiki Kaisha 南満洲鉄道株式会社 [South Manchuria Railway Co., Ltd.].

軍刀火造刀身　振　四､八〇〇　Military Sword, Heat Tempered Blades 4,800.

軍刀完成品　振　一､二〇〇　Military Sword, Finished Products 1,200.

Note: Furi 振 is the counter used for swords.

 

[Kiipu]

For comparison to the 1944 fiscal year plan, see the table translated by Nick at the post below.  Note the same overall quantity of 6,000 for each year, just different amounts of blades to completed swords.

Why did the army revive the Samurai sword design in 1934 for officers?, Post #16

 

I would also like to extend my thanks to Nick & Trystan for helping with the translation of 火造.

[John C]

In an effort to learn, I have two questions: 

1. Do the referenced numbers on the chart refer to planned production or actual delivered production?

2. What happened to the bare blades in the second row? (not including the ones sent to Tokyo from the other arsenals).

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, Kiipu said:

軍刀火造刀身　振　四､八〇〇　Military Sword, Heat Tempered Blades 4,800.

軍刀完成品　振　一､二〇〇　Military Sword, Finished Products 1,200.

Does this mean the 4,800 were unfinished?  That would line up, like you said, with the '44 figures of 500 finished and 5,500 unfinished.  

 

I'm still amazed that in the last two years of the war Japan was actually increasing their sword/weapon production.

[DTM72]

8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Does this mean the 4,800 were unfinished?  That would line up, like you said, with the '44 figures of 500 finished and 5,500 unfinished.  

 

I'm still amazed that in the last two years of the war Japan was actually increasing their sword/weapon production.

They were preparing for the Allied land invasion. The US has a gun behind every blade of grass...the Japanese would have had a blade behind every blade of grass.

[Kiipu]

13 hours ago, John C said:

1. Do the referenced numbers on the chart refer to planned production or actual delivered production?

 

Both the fiscal year 1943 and 1944 documents are referring to planned production.

 

13 hours ago, John C said:

2. What happened to the bare blades in the second row?

 

The 1943 document does not say; however, the 1944 document states they were forwarded to Tōkyō 1st Army Arsenal.  I think the same applies to the 1943 planned production.  I think these blades were in a finished state, but unpolished.

[John C]

Thomas:

Thank you. I am trying to get a sense of how many complete swords were used during the war. But ultimately, we will never know how many survived the battlefield and the subsequent destruction by occupying forces. In addition, these numbers do not include the various private/family blades that made it into service. 

 

John C.

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, John C said:

Thomas:

Thank you. I am trying to get a sense of how many complete swords were used during the war. But ultimately, we will never know how many survived the battlefield and the subsequent destruction by occupying forces. In addition, these numbers do not include the various private/family blades that made it into service. 

 

John C.

John

This Document is from October 1945. It showed the number of weapons the Allies confiscate in Japan(Not from IJA&IJN). The edge weapons are
Nihonto 627000
Gunto 50500
Saber 128800
Bayonet 473300
Others(Naginata,Yari ,etc)279300

 

[John C]

Trystan:

Very interesting. Around 1.5 million blades confiscated (including bayonets)! And out of that number, relatively few gunto at just over 50K. 

So we know how many gunto were made and how many were confiscated. I suspect, we could figure out how many were distributed by knowing the number of individuals qualified to carry one. With a few more documents, we may be able to actually figure out how many were lost during the war.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

That's the most comprehensive tally I've ever seen, Trystan!  Wow!  Previously, all I've seen are discussions by Fuller and by Kapp estimating the total sword production at 2 Million for the war.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 1/25/2022 at 6:49 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks Trystan!  I actually have it's "sister" Ma 77 on file:

Bruce

It this Ma 77 in Taichi mount?

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 2/2/2022 at 3:53 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Another from yahoo.jp auctions, no pictures of the serial number. There is some Kanji on the Tsuba, wonder what it says?  https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/u1035189279

 

 

 

Kanji on Tsuba:

@Bruce Pennington @Kiipu

It looks like

昭和十七年 1942(壬午）

於大連  at DaiRen

[Kiipu]

Thanks Trystan for the additional translation.

於大連 = oite Dairen = at Dalian (Chinese 於大连).

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

Thanks Trystan for the additional translation.

於大連 = oite Dairen = at Dalian (Chinese 於大连)--于大连

That is a 1942 Mantetsu sword,maybe the owner got it direct from 大連 Mantetsu factory？

[Bruce Pennington]

6 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It this Ma 77 in Taichi mount?

It's in shirasaya in the photos I have:

[Bruce Pennington]

5 hours ago, Kiipu said:

於大連 = oite Dairen = at Dalian (Chinese 於大连).

 

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

That is a 1942 Mantetsu sword,maybe the owner got it direct from 大連 Mantetsu factory？

I'm thinking this might indicate the whole rig, blade and fittings were made at the SMR factory.

[BANGBANGSAN]

On 12/15/2022 at 7:35 AM, John C said:

Trystan:

Very interesting. Around 1.5 million blades confiscated (including bayonets)! And out of that number, relatively few gunto at just over 50K. 

So we know how many gunto were made and how many were confiscated. I suspect, we could figure out how many were distributed by knowing the number of individuals qualified to carry one. With a few more documents, we may be able to actually figure out how many were lost during the war.

 

John C.

John

It said from 民间（Civilian/Civilian group).I also state NOT from IJA&IJN.That means didn't count the Gunto from both Army &Navy.I would say maybe that 50K 軍刀 more like 軍屬刀 Gunzoku to.

[John C]

Some pics of the mantetsu I just acquired. Note that the ito wrap and menuki are refurbished/reproduction. 

Serial number has been recorded.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John, is this the one with the aluminum saya?

[John C]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

John, is this the one with the aluminum saya?

Definitely metal covered wood. Feels a bit too heavy to be aluminum. There is a patch that is rusted more like a ferrous metal. Is there any way other than weight for me to tell?

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

OK, I must’ve confused this one with another one I’ve been discussing lately.

[Kiipu]

5 hours ago, John C said:

Is there any way other than weight for me to tell?

 

A magnet comes in handy and is a good start to figuring out what metal is used.

[John C]

3 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

A magnet comes in handy

Of courseThat's what I get for not paying attention in science class!

BTW, the magnet did stick so I guess it's steel.

Stuck to the bolts in my neck as well...not sure what that means, though.

John C.

[Kiipu]

I figured you were either bolted together or got too close to a mortar round!