Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[Bruce Pennington]

15 hours ago, waljamada said:

Mantetsu blade with a stamp in interesting type 3 mounts I haven't seen before.

Thanks Adam!  Already have that one on file, but appreciate the tip! 

[wiktor69]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:59 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

@Stephen @PNSSHOGUN- I tried translating the page, but can't find a way to contact the seller for the serial number.  Do you know how?  I will do it if you can tell me where to click on the page.  I tried clicking his seller name, but that didn't give me a message option.

This sword has already been sold, but the description remains:

"Type 98 Guntō and Koa Isshin Sword.

I registered the things that I had at home since I was a child in 2013 by myself.

The condition is not very good. I have only studied swords online, but I am not very familiar with them, but I will explain them.

As for the surface, peeling of paint can be seen on the surface.
Metal fittings such as brims have the same number of 564.
Claws are present but do not stay.

The blade has several blade spills. There is no bend.
I cannot judge from my own knowledge whether it can be corrected by sharpening.

Since it is such an item, please bid only for those who can judge from the image as junk.

No claim, no return, contact after a successful bid, those who can smoothly receive processing, thank you.

If you are new, please let us know from the question column. We will ship by cash on delivery by Kuroneko.
As an aside, I remember being told at an early age that my grandfather's brother went to Bougainville, saw the enemy, and commanded a shootout."

[PNSSHOGUN]

Hi Bruce, the only way to contact them would be to have a Yahoo.jp auction account. The english buying services don't allow for contact with the seller, though you could try asking one of the customer service people to message them.

[IJASWORDS]

Bruce, do all the 1938 examples have the Manchurian Railway logo? My 1938 N156 does. Does this stamp show up on any other years? 

[Ontario_Archaeology]

54 minutes ago, IJASWORDS said:

Bruce, do all the 1938 examples have the Manchurian Railway logo? My 1938 N156 does. Does this stamp show up on any other years? 

I think in Bruces write up on Mantetsu's he mentions that the Manchurian Railway logo stamp stops being put on blades after 1938? (maybe 1939) I can't remember, but after that the stamp is no longer put on. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, IJASWORDS said:

Bruce, do all the 1938 examples have the Manchurian Railway logo? My 1938 N156 does. Does this stamp show up on any other years? 

Neil：

According to Ohmura, the Mantetsu logo only showed up in 1938

http://ohmura-study.net/222.html

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, IJASWORDS said:

1938 examples have the Manchurian Railway logo

Neil,

All the '38s I can see that part of the nakago (there are 2 or 3 I cannot see) have the logo.

 

Of the '39s, all the ones with Alpha/numberic numbers, all are non-Koa and have the SMR logo - N 423, N 574, and V 18.  The rest of the '39s are katakana/number serials and are Koa Isshin, no logo.

[Kiipu]

There is one Mantetsu with both the SMR logo & Kōa Isshin 興亞一心 slogan.

 

The Kōa Isshin slogan was introduced by Matsuoka Yōsuke 松岡洋右 in March 1939.  Matsuoka was at the time the president of the South Manchuria Railway Company so there was not much anyone could say about the matter.  However, the Imperial Japanese Army had different ideas, not to say regulations to boot, and the slogan was dropped on contract blades starting in 1943!

Yōsuke Matsuoka

[BANGBANGSAN]

30 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

There is one Mantetsu with both the SMR logo & Kōa Isshin 興亞一心 slogan.

 

The Kōa Isshin slogan was introduced by Matsuoka Yōsuke 松岡洋右 in March 1939.  Matsuoka was at the time the president of the South Manchuria Railway Company so there was not much anyone could say about the matter.  However, the Imperial Japanese Army had different ideas, not to say regulations to boot, and the slogan was dropped on contract blades starting in 1943!

Yōsuke Matsuoka

Thomas 

Do you mean this 1939 cut off waki?

 

[Sunny]

10 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Thomas 

Do you mean this 1939 cut off waki?

 

Nice 

[Kiipu]

Yes, that is the one I am remembering.  I think that is the same as the one below.

Mantetsu Suriage Or Wak?

 

Edit: The same sword was also discussed earlier in this thread.

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey, Page 4

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, forgot about that one!  Classic example of a transition.

[wiktor69]

Привет,

Вот такой меч появился в продаже на торговой площадке:

Edited February 17, 2022 by wiktor69

[Stephen]

Nice find.  Bruce is going to give you a big hug.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, wiktor69 said:

sale on the marketplace:

Thanks Victor!  I happened to come across that one last October, but I appreciate the tip.  If it is currently for sale @Sunny is on the hunt for one.  This one is a little unique with the unusual color of green on the saya:

[wiktor69]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 This one is a little unique with the unusual color of green on the saya:

 

 

Terrible paint. Adhesion is completely absent and brass elements are dirty. I would wash off this paint first thing)))
but I do not have extra 150,000 rubles)))

[Kiipu]

On 9/22/2019 at 6:02 PM, k morita said:

This book is Japanese high school students memoirs in Manchuria under the wartime, not a sword book.  It was published in 1980.

 

One of the swords that was polished by the student and specifically mentioned in the book has just surfaced.  The serial number is セ一二五一.

WWII Japanese Sword

[Bruce Pennington]

A friend got this one to me.  It's peculiar because it's clearly a Spring 1940, yet the kana SEEMS to be an "O オ", but that kana is only found on 1942 blades.  I've developed enough trust in the reliability of the I Ro Ha numbering system to know that kana isn't found in 1940 blades.  There is a "HO ホ" in 1940, so either this is an incompletely marked HO, or poorly struck (you can see a shadowy stroke that is in place of the missing mark) or an error like we saw on the Mantetsu with the mei kanji out of order:

[BANGBANGSAN]

11 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 There is a "HO ホ" in 1940, 

Bruce

I agree with you ,it should be HO ホ

[Kiipu]

It is the katakana character オ [letter O] and there is no mistaking it.  This is the second Mantetsu blade prefixed with オ that is dated Autumn 1940.

Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey, Page 9

Edited February 25, 2022 by Kiipu

[Kiipu]

I think I know what happened.  For the 12th series, Mantetsu substituted the katakana character オ "O" for the katakana character ヲ "WO" .  Both are pronounced as O and in addition the ヲ is rarely used.  See the Wikipedia article about Wo (kana) .  In addition, no ヲ "WO" marked Mantetsu blades have been reported.  There was one blade that was thought to be a ヲ; however, it turned out to be ヌ433 based upon the date of 昭和庚辰春 1940 spring.  The confusion was caused by a poor quality rubbing that can be seen at The presentation sword from Japan to Finland .  I would like to hear what others think about this revision to the timeline.

Revised 1940 Timeline

5th ホ Series: 昭和己卯冬 1939 Winter to 昭和庚辰春 1940 Spring.

6th ヘ Series: None reported so far.

7th と Series: 昭和庚辰春 1940 Spring [hiragana と character instead of katakanaト ].

8th チ Series: 昭和庚辰春 1940 Spring.

9th リ Series: 昭和庚辰春 1940 Spring.

10th ヌ Series: 昭和庚辰春 1940 Spring to 昭和庚辰秋 1940 Fall.

11th ル Series: 昭和庚辰秋 1940 Fall.

12th オ Series: 昭和庚辰秋 1940 Fall [Would normally be the 27th character in the iroha poem].

13th ワ Series: 昭和庚辰秋 1940 Fall to 昭和辛巳春 1941 Spring.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Kiipu

[Bruce Pennington]

Well this is an interesting turn of events, indeed!  They were definitely doing something in 1940 with the kana choices.  As long as the 2 are pronounced the same, as you say, then I think it explains it completely.  I looked to see where I logged that "オ 111", but I don't have it in the files.  I think I got distracted by the copy of Morita-sans chart in that Chinese book. 

 

Currently, the chart looks like this:

 

How do you think I should correct that line?  The Iroha series calls for a ヲ "WO".  If I change it to  オ "O", it could get confusing.  I COULD change it to オ "O" with a Footnote, explaining the substitution.  I don't know.  Tell me your thoughts on it.

[BANGBANGSAN]

Check this leather cover on the Mantetsu, it is the first one I ever saw one like this.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Incredible!  @PNSSHOGUN - ever see a metal drag on a leather cover?

[PNSSHOGUN]

Yes, a few now. There's one in Fuller & Gregory's book. They all seem to be custom designed, rather than any formal pattern.

[BANGBANGSAN]

19 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Yes, a few now. There's one in Fuller & Gregory's book. They all seem to be custom designed, rather than any formal pattern.

John

Can you point out which page?

Thanks

[PNSSHOGUN]

It is on page 70 of the larger one, it isn't the example I was thinking of though. Definitely recall seeing a similar one to the above in a thread here, or a sale listing.

[BANGBANGSAN]

11 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

It is on page 70 of the larger one, it isn't the example I was thinking of though. Definitely recall seeing a similar one to the above in a thread here, or a sale listing.

Thanks John。That is 若濑 Wakasei mount。

[Lareon]

My badly treated mantetsu for you @Bruce Pennington

 

Sadly someone's been chopping at things with it.

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Tony!  I have some shots of that blade from 2019, but your pics are much better.  Hey, is that a black saya?  Not very often we see a Mantetsu in a black saya.

10 hours ago, Lareon said:

My badly treated mantetsu