Attention Mantetsu Owners: A Survey

[IJASWORDS]

I recon that example is a put together. A battered scabbard, with a pristine re-wrapped handle, that has never seen a hand on it. Come on, I will make up one today with any blade you name. 

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce

Ohmura San did mention few wavy Hamon Mantetsu blades exist,it should be special order one. I have one, and I think Neil got one as well.

http://ohmura-study.net/222.html

筆者注 例外的に乱刃が存在する。恐らく特注品であろう。

 

 

 

 

Well, that shows that not all of them carry Mantetsu blades. He doesn’t show the nakago on that one, but the hamon isn’t a Mantetsu.

 

[IJASWORDS]

Yep, got a Mantetsu with waves, but not as wavy as Ohmura. Again looking at Ohmuras example, his has dust cover seppa is not usual, other wrong seppa design, habaki looks unlike any WW2, made to suit a recently polished blade. 

I have 30% of all known examples, and they are consistent with each other and age.  

[BANGBANGSAN]

Neil

Very true, I agree with you.Just trying to say there are very few of wavy hamon Mantetsu exist. So far, I only knew you&me got the wavy one.

 

 

Yep, got a Mantetsu with waves, but not as wavy as Ohmura. Again looking at Ohmuras example, his has dust cover seppa is not usual, other wrong seppa design, habaki looks unlike any WW2, made to suit a recently polished blade. 

I have 30% of all known examples, and they are consistent with each other and age.  

[Bruce Pennington]

I agree, Trystan & Neil, that your wavy hamon Mantetsu blades are legit. But both are modest. That one on Ohmura's example is more like the blades coming out of Japan, via Komonjo, that are far more extravegant, and therefore, suspicious. It may turn out that they're all legit, but I believe the ones you guys own without question. Admittedly, Ohmura did not claim his example was a Mantetsu, but like Neil's point - all the known, in-hand, examples we know of are. So, that makes his an outlier.

[Bruce Pennington]

Is it possible Neil's Unsigned Mantetsu is one of the semi-finished blade?

That’s not a bad idea, Trystan. The chart is for 1944 and these are ‘45 blades, but they easily could have been.

[IJASWORDS]

Steve's description on a parallel thread, of Manchurian Rinji Seishiki, or MRS, is an acceptable name. It contains what Thomas and Nick have discovered about this model. 

My driving force in being persistent was three fold... 

Eliminate the perception that they were Japanese civil or home defense swords.

Confirm that the blade and fittings were made in Manchuria, with Mantetsu blades.

And try to establish a name or description that is agreeable, that could define this specific model going forward. 

Ok, there are not too many around, but deserve to be recognised as another individual piece in WW2 sword history puzzle. 

What are your thoughts? 

[Shamsy]

Manchurian Rinji Seishiki is probably best, as it designates the location of manufacturing. MRS also rolls quite well. Unless there are more 'patterns', I'd avoid that term for now. It is more useful to refer to patterns when there are a few swords to differentiate.

 

Good job here, Neil. It's always beneficial to ask Nick for insight, since he's a very thorough researcher working with primary evidence. He also has a no-nonsense, logical attitude which I find very refreshing.

[Bruce Pennington]

Just added a '39 Koa to the collection and study! It's in combat saya and has the "Kite" or "Airborne" sarute. Serial number ロ(RO) 270, our 2nd RO. Blades in good shape, but the saya looks like it was worn by a really short guy who litterally dragged it on the ground everywhere he went, and he must have covered some miles! The bottom edge of the leather is completely worn through. What puzzles me is the missing sarute, the metal bands mid-way down the saya (you can see the imprint on the wood and the bulge in the leather where they used to be) and some sort of metal end-cap on the wood (can see the imprint on the wood). I'm guessing the G.I. that brought it back must have disassembled it and failed to put those parts back together.

 

The leather at the top of the cover is fragile and broken where the snaps come around.

 

Nice fuchi and kabutogane with extra gold coloring at the edges.

 

I have some pics now, and will post more when I can. I bought this to re-sell .... but I don't think that's going to happen!!!!

[Bruce Pennington]

More pics. Odd there are no boar’s eye seppa. Handle is snug so there wouldn’t be room to add them.

 

Interesting way the liner maker joined the end of the two halves together:

[Bruce Pennington]

Oh my Gosh! I just noticed the Maximum Ugly blossoms on that tsuba! I realize there were lots of variations from shop to shop, but this one would win 1st Prize at the Annual Ugly Tsuba Contest!!!

 

Well, the rest of the tsuba is quite nice, actually, but THOSE BLOSSOMS!!! AHHH!

 

A cat-scratch habaki, nice fuchi and kabutogane, then this. It doesn't make sense. Could this be a piece-together?

[IJASWORDS]

Bruce, put together???? You gotta look at the evidence. You have a push button tzuka, but a wood saya with no allowance for the latch. As you said, seppa missing... You be the judge and jury on this. 

[waljamada]

Just read through all of this. I just purchased a Koa Isshin Mantetsu Autumn 1942 off of Showa22 (fingers crossed) that hasn't arrived yet. The mei seems very legitimate after I did a bunch of comparisons as do the file lines, but after reading this I zoomed up to the only picture that kind of shows the mune and it appears to not have any markings. =]

[Bruce Pennington]

No worries! I doubt he powdered them like he does the mei. Please update us when it comes in.

[waljamada]

Just got a response from him and he replied "serial number ヤ 三五〇 stamped". So "Ya 350", cool, it's all there.

[Bruce Pennington]

Good. Still like the pics when it arrives for the files.

[Joe Choi]

Hello...

Long time no post... was just passing by ...

I'm the one who has the Mantetsu with attribution 鷹信焠之 (Takanobu kore o niragu) 

This sword also have the "wave" hamon… maybe a missing link to all the wavy hamons ?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hello...

Long time no post... was just passing by ...

I'm the one who has the Mantetsu with attribution 鷹信焠之 (Takanobu kore o niragu)

This sword also have the "wave" hamon… maybe a missing link to all the wavy hamons ?

Thanks Joe, I hadn't seen the pics of the hamon on this one. I've saved the added pics to the files.

 

It is interesting that we now have examples of wavy hamon in years '39, '41-'44. I couple of them are in the "suspect" file because they from Japan and sold through Komonjo and both blade and hamon looks gendaito. But, who knows?

An interesting trivia - just recorded a third '41 "YO" number. All 3 are 349, 350, and 352! What are the odds?!?!

[Bruce Pennington]

 

Neil,

I just realized your '38 in "Rinji" fittings is actually in the MRS fittings, so it was re-fitted sometime during the war. Very cool, though, to have a first-year Mantetsu in 1944-45 fittings - covered the entire breadth of the war!

[BANGBANGSAN]

Joe

Ohmura San did mention few wavy Hamon Mantetsu blades exist,it should be special order one. I have one, and I think Neil got one as well.

http://ohmura-study.net/222.html

筆者注 例外的に乱刃が存在する。恐らく特注品であろう。

 

Hello...

Long time no post... was just passing by ...

I'm the one who has the Mantetsu with attribution 鷹信焠之 (Takanobu kore o niragu) 

This sword also have the "wave" hamon… maybe a missing link to all the wavy hamons ?

[IJASWORDS]

Bruce, as you point out I have 1944 and 1945 examples of the MRS swords with Mantetsu blades. I also have one with a 1938 SMR stamped blade. 

This early blade got me chasing down rabbit holes thinking that the MRS started production in 1938, which is now proven not to be the case. 

So, as this '38 example fits perfectly, and is original to war time, there are two possible reasons for its existence..... 

1. A refitted blade for some reason during the war, but why one with the rare SMR stamp? 

2. The factory/arsenal had kept blades as standards or production examples for reference purposes. As desperate times and shortages were occurring late in the war, all available blades were pressed into service. Even retained examples. 

I favor the second example, as most logical, but speculation of course. 

 

[Joe Choi]

Hi Bruce...

One more for your record keeping.. 

 

[Joe Choi]

Another one ...

 

 

[Joe Choi]

OK.. the last one that I have...

Many have come and gone ... if I find any pics, I'll post them.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Joe,

 

Where have you been all my life, big boy!? *big kiss* Ha!

 

That's great my friend, thanks! We have been tracking blades with "W" stamps too. Do any of these have any? Also, it sometimes comes in handy if we have at least one shot of the fittings. Especially if they are anything outside of standard issue. Some have kabutogane with an inspection stamp or 2 or 3 at the top.

[Kiipu]

I'm the one who has the Mantetsu with attribution 鷹信焠之 (Takanobu kore o niragu) 

This sword also have the "wave" hamon… maybe a missing link to all the wavy hamons?

 

Just to clarify, is this the same sword that is depicted at the link below?

"Mantetsu with attribution"

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/4407-mantetsu-with-attribution/?hl=takanobu

 

[Joe Choi]

Hi..

Yes it's the same sword "Mantetsu with attribution"

[Kiipu]

I also have one with a 1938 SMR stamped blade.  This early blade got me chasing down rabbit holes thinking that the MRS started production in 1938, which is now proven not to be the case.

 

Is this the 1938 SMR, serial number N156, that you are talking about?

"Rethinking the "Late War" or "Home Defense" Officer Gunto"

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/rethinking-late-war-home-defense-officer-gunto-717380/?highlight=Mantetsu

 

[IJASWORDS]

Yes, N156 is my one that got me thinking. 

[Denis V]

Hi Bruce,

not sure if you already have this one, but just stumbled upon another Mantetsu that seems to have the “w” stamp.

 

https://www.artswords.com/a_minty_gunto_mounted_mantetsu_sword_091812.htm

 

even though it’s already sold, the pictures are clear and good for the records.

 

Denis