yari Bizen Munemitsu 宗光

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

You guys are pathetic. Don't you know that a successful marriage is based on trust and understanding?

 

That's because you've married a Japanese. Try a southern italian next time. :lol:

 

 

No kids = more money for swords

 

Soooo right (at least for me).

Meet you again when you'll have your first heir walking around asking

"dad what are you hiding there ?" ...

[Guido]

You guys are pathetic. Don't you know that a successful marriage is based on trust and understanding?

That's because you've married a Japanese. Try a southern italian next time. :lol:

I hope you read the remainder of my post ... in any case, many foreigners here complain that the Japanese language is so vague - heck, that's the beauty of it! I couldn't pull off that stunt in any other language!

 

And there will be no "next time", unless I can convince my wife that polygamy is a natural lifestyle for a healthy male. And nothing wrong with Southern Italians, I'm all for cultural diversity!

 

Yeah, fat chance ...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Anybody knows that are men who wear the pants :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies for the temporary diversion, Jacques, :lol: but the phone just rang to say the yari has come back from the polishers with the tip "sorted".

 

A fierce argument has been raging over whether, in general, a spear tip under stress should bend, or snap. Two schools of thought prevail, and I am yet to be convinced either way.

 

Be that as it may, I am now eagerly getting ready to go there, and then, having seen the repair, make the final decision on whether to actually purchase this yari as I did originally promise I would.

 

Please watch this space! :D ...

(Three hours later.)

Not that space, this space! (Better leave some space for you all to watch... )

 

Well, as with many things, the answer was not quite what I was expecting. It has been fixed, yes, but not what I would call perfectly. That is, I can tell it has been straightened and polished out.

 

It's now at home in its yari-bukuro, and when the wife asks about it, I shall follow the advice of this forum and say, with perfect truth, that I sent a yari for repair.

[Bugyotsuji]

................. I would, however, like to put this question to the forum. Choose one.... or maybe I should start a poll?

 

Should the point of a spear or sword a) bend, b) buckle or c) snap under stress?

 

Several arguments have been put forth. Here are some I have heard recently. What do you think?

1. A spear has to be super sharp; strong enough to penetrate armour/armor. A bendy tip is unthinkable and proves the spear is no good.

2. Many dealers like to explain that the troops sometimes used their spears to adjust logs in the campfire. The heated tips were then either allowed to cool naturally, or dipped in water, depending on the circumstances, often affecting the yaki.

3. Nihonto chip and bend naturally during iai and get sent off for repair. Some bending sorts itself naturally within the saya. Twisty bends tend to be difficult to remove. Bending, in and of itself is not necessarily an indication of how well or badly a blade has been made.

4. Some spears were made specifically to be stabbed repeatedly into castle gates in order to gradually shred the wood and destroy its integrity.

 

My thoughts. A long thin blade with a fine point would be fine for artistic appreciation, and sticking into animals or a lightly armoured enemy, maybe. For real serious armour/armor penetration and long-term blade integrity, a short stubby yari blade with ryo shinogi might be best.

 

What other theories/stories/illustrations are there?

[Guest reinhard]

Some bending sorts itself naturally within the saya.

 

Wanna buy some magic saya, mista ?

 

reinhard

[Bugyotsuji]

Some bending sorts itself naturally within the saya.

 

Wanna buy some magic saya, mista ?

 

reinhard

 

Yes, a sword dealer said this to me the other day. Not quite sure what he meant, but he mentioned people inserting a bent iai sword back in the saya, and hey presto, ... presumably after some time, when they removed the sword... lo and behold... :lol:

[Brian]

Anyone who actually takes that theory further is going to get themselves a week's ban Let's just leave that one right there as a funny story shall we? :lol:

 

Although all logic says that a hardened and tempered tip should snap when under stress, I have seen at least 2 swords with the kissaki rolled over or bent, so it is possible. Some have said that if it bends, then there can't be a proper temper there, but maybe some of the metalurgists here can explain why this happens?

 

Brian

[Jean]

From Piers's pictures, it appears that the yari was bent on a small length (no more that 5 mm)

 

Indeed, it should have snapped but we have all seen common tempered knives with a bent in the tip, there must be an explanation.

 

Concerning having the tip repaired, Piers, is it going to be by repolishing?

[Bugyotsuji]

From Piers's pictures, it appears that the yari was bent on a small length (no more that 5 mm)

 

Indeed, it should have snapped but we have all seen common tempered knives with a bent in the tip, there must be an explanation.

 

Concerning having the tip repaired, Piers, is it going to be by repolishing?

 

Jean, it has already been done. Yes, less than 4mm I would say, although I don't have it in front of me. The whole blade has not been repolished. The tip seems to have been straightened (but not perfectly) by beating? ... possibly a little thickening?... then filing and smoothing back? The guy repairs Nihonto blades for a well-known sword shop on a regular basis, apparently, and is said to do a good job. I haven't yet made up my own mind.

 

Watch this space for a close-up shot of what the guy did. Will try to get a good shot of it this evening when I get home. (Now beginning to wish I had taken a proper 'before' shot of the tip, too!)

[Bugyotsuji]

This is the paperwork. Not quite sure what the old categories meant.

Edit. Found here that this straddles present-day 'Hozon' and 'Tokubetsu Hozon'.

http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/nbthkshinsa1.htm

[Bugyotsuji]

The photography was almost a waste of time. No combination of lighting seemed to work. I may try once more by daylight, but this camera takes only polite shots!

[Jean]

Piers

 

"The edge of the blade has sunk into the velvet,"

 

I prefer silk less subject to retain dust

 

It seems to have been bent back, it is hardly visible from your shots.

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers

 

"The edge of the blade has sunk into the velvet,"

 

I prefer silk less subject to retain dust

 

It seems to have been bent back, it is hardly visible from your shots.

 

You mean that you think the blade has been 'bent' back into place, rather than any other method?

 

(PS good idea about satin vs velvet.)

[Jean]

You mean that you think the blade has been 'bent' back into place, rather than any other method?

 

But for hammering, is there any other method?

 

Heating the tip and bending it back

or

Heating the tip and hammering it back

 

(Message in a bottle)

 

Help, some metallurgist is needed urgently

[Bugyotsuji]

Last attempt. Fading natural light this evening on the car bonnet/hood.

[Bugyotsuji]

Now you have to guess how much it cost to have that done!!! hahahaha...

[Jean]

Now you have to guess how much it cost to have that done!!! hahahaha...

 

Free of charge

[Bugyotsuji]

Now you have to guess how much it cost to have that done!!! hahahaha...

 

Free of charge

 

I wish! :lol:

 

Both my friend and the dealer tried to stop me from having it done, as I mentioned earlier. Don't you think that's weird?

 

I could simply not imagine leaving it in that state with a bent tip.

 

They, on the other hand, could not imagine anyone so foolish as to actually spend money on having it straightened. (Nothing to do with the old question of whether to 'repair' an antique or not.)

[Jean]

Last try : 40 000 yens

[Bugyotsuji]

Last try : 40 000 yens

 

Jean, you are a true diplomat! Don't forget this was without any overall polishing.

 

Answer.

The togishi charged 15,000 yen for it.

 

 

Thinking this was quite reasonable, I took him a different fukuro-yari spear on Monday which was half polished. About 18 months ago I had paid 25,000 yen for a togi, thinking I would get a super good deal.... big mistake. The guy had painted the saya and sleeve black, and after getting most of the rust off, coated the blade in some kind of clear lacquer.

What a mess!

 

So, having already spent 25,000 I didn't expect to have to pay too much more.

 

To clean the other fukuro yari and make it perfect the togishi is now asking

40,000 yen

.

[Jean]

To clean the other fukuro yari and make it perfect the togishi is now asking

 

Nagasa?

[Bugyotsuji]

To clean the other fukuro yari and make it perfect the togishi is now asking

 

Nagasa?

 

It's at the shop. Will collect it tomorrow and measure the blade length. It's short enough not to need a toroku-sho, about 12 or 13 cm from memory, but it's ryo-shinogi which is expensive...

[bluboxer]

Hello all,I believe I may be able to contribute my 2 cents worth concerning the hardness issue.I am positive that you can have a true hamon and still have a somewhat ductile edge or point.

After a piece of steel is quenched it's hardness will be at the max for it's specific carbon content.Carbon content is a new discussion in itself so we will consider the C content of most nihonto which is in the range of approximately .6-.85 % carbon.This "as quenched" steel has a very rigid microstructure.This gives the property of high hardness yet is also very brittle.The smith returns the steel to the fire at least once and sometimes three times to "temper" the steel and remove some of this brittleness (and hardness).Most simple steels are re-heated to between 200 and 325 degrees Celsius depending on the user application.

Tempering is a trade off between hardness and toughness.It is a gradual process that slowly changes the martensite(microstructure of the hamon) to other less hard microstructures (such as bainite or pearlite or a mix of the three).There will always be a certain amount of martensite remaining until the temperature of the steel reaches it's austenitizing temperature(temperature the smith takes it to for the quench).Again,this temperature will vary slightly with the steel composition and may be around 700-850 C.

Many of the blades that were caught in fires and lost most if not all of there hamons were subjected to very high temperatures in excess of 1000 degrees.As the steel is heated the martensite will slowly disappear as the time and temperature increase.The smith must also be carefull when tempering so that the thinner edge does not get hotter than the rest of the blade as this could lead to a quite visible hamon at some distance from the edge and a soft edge that will not remain sharp and will readily bend.

Alan

[Bugyotsuji]

Now there's a man with an angle!

 

You lost me in the first sentence with the word 'ductile', which I had to go and look up.

 

What you have said has moved the game forward. Thank you very much for your observations, Alan.

 

Would it be true to say then, that the maker of a long thin spear blade would, in an ideal world, want the point to be a perfect mix of hardness and toughness, but might slightly prefer the point to bend or contract somewhat on the battlefield (rather than snap), as it can always be hammered out to some extent for emergency re-use?

[bluboxer]

Yes Piers,I agree with the idea of the spear tip bending instead of snapping.Especially if the troops are going to use them to hack through doors and adjust logs in the fire!A proper ass chewing would be due .Further more; in the real world not every soldier is able to execute perfect thrusts every time and other hard things(armor,bones and such) are there to deflect and damage a point.Perhaps the heat treatment should be a reflection of the geometry.A super hard edge can withstand more abuse if there is a great deal of meat backing it up.However;a long thin spear would have a greater penetration potential than one with a large cross section.

Alan