non-paying client - not sure where this belongs

[b.hennick]

Hi:

I sold a daisho to someone who wanted to use Paypal and agreed to pay all fees. Although he has paid the full price for the daisho he has not paid the fees. He made several payments and after each payment I told him what the fees were. He did not complain at any point until near the end. He does not reply to my emails. Can anyone offer a suggestion? I have never had a problem like this before or since.

Here is a list of the fees that I paid to end up with U.S. funds in my account.

Paypal charged me a fee to receive the payment.

Paypal charged me a fee to transfer to my Canadian account

My bank charged me a fee to convert the Canadian dollars back to U.S. dollars.

Each fee was detailed. They add up to about 6%

I no longer ship blades to a purchser until they are paid in full (unless they are well known to me).

I guess my main problem is that I am a teacher by profession and not a business man.

[drbvac]

Barry:

 

My sympathies and I have had the same go around BUT on both sides of the equation and I believe your last two sentences say it all and will take care of your problem.

[Guest Nanshoku-Samurai]

xxx

[Bungo]

Barry,

just eat the fee and stop bit$%#@&........why ? verbal agreement amounts to you said, he said.

Next time if you are not willing to eat the paypal cut, then work that amount into the sale price ( and no need to itemize )and present that as the final bill. You may even work the shipping fee into the bill and then tell buyer he/she/it gets FREE shipping........... I won't do that personally but you may want to consider that

Also you may want to establish a bank account based in USD ( aka us Peso ) in Canada like Chris, so you can avoid the currency transaction fee . From what i understand, paypal does not charge you for transfering $ from paypal balance to your own bank account ( I assume in USD ).

 

 

milt

[Walter]

... Also you may want to establish a bank account based in USD ( aka us Peso ) in Canada like Chris, so you can avoid the currency transaction fee . From what i understand, paypal does not charge you for transfering $ from paypal balance to your own bank account ( I assume in USD )....

 

That unfortunately wouldn't work.

I have the US account in Canada and another one in US (Citibank).

PayPal refuses to transfer the money to my US account based in US because I'm a Canadian resident.

I tried to give them my US account in Canada (Bank of Montreal) for the transfer - same thing.

They want just my primary account number which is in Canadian pesos.

Of course, they don't charge anything for the transfer ... just the exchange rate, which is totally ridiculous (HIT #1).

After that, when I transfer it to my US account, there's bank exchange rate... (HIT # 2) ...

 

The ONLY way is to NOT SHIP anything until you receive the FULL payment!

No exceptions!

 

One more thing:

If you don't like to suffer the PayPal fees (who does?), ask the buyer to make a PayPal via eCheck - the PayPal fee is only $5.00 doesn't matter the transaction amount.

Fees for receiving eCheck payments will not exceed $5.00 USD per transaction. - Check Here:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/websc ... countries=

[Bungo]

" One more thing:

If you don't like to suffer the PayPal fees (who does?), ask the buyer to make a PayPal via eCheck - the PayPal fee is only $5.00 doesn't matter the transaction amount.

Fees for receiving eCheck payments will not exceed $5.00 USD per transaction. - Check Here:

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/websc ... countries= "

 

that's a viable idea, however, it may take additional days and we all know those buyers are eager beavers ( esp. the french who shall remain nameless ). So if off e-bay sales, work that paypal cut into the final price. If e-bay sale...... well, just " eat " the fee ( or one can always mark the buy it now price " higher " running the risk no one will buy it now )

p.s. I love fellow Americanos who settle the bill with money order

 

milt

[Bungo]

As occasional ( now habitual due to the great economic climate we are all enjoying with the strong Euro and all......... ) e-bay seller, one thing we have to be careful are those Newbie e-bay bidders.

One dude with no prior buying record ( zero feedback ), upon wining my ko-gatana auction ( less than 100 US Peso ), wanted to pay with bank wire transfer ( even though my auction says cashire check/money order, paypal only ) and wanted my bank account info so he can pay immediately.

Imagine that !! It's like answering the Nigerian plead for cooperation to share 145 millions United States Dollars ( now i heard they are sharing Euro ).

Not saying he's out to scam me as he at least agreed to answer e-bay's enquiry about " withdrawing from sale " and I got my e-bay fee back, but still ................

 

 

Milt

[Jean]

Milt has written :

 

esp. the french who shall remain nameless

 

When talking about "the french", please, my masterless samurai aka Ronin, put a Kapital "F" :lol: :lol:

[Guido]

... and wanted my bank account info so he can pay immediately.

Imagine that !! It's like answering the Nigerian plead for cooperation to share 145 millions United States Dollars ...

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't get it. I'm giving out my bank account details for about 33 years now - I really like it if somone sends me money :D. Maybe it's different in Germany and Japan, but what I remember from living in the US in the early nineties, account number and bank name alone are not enough to successfully scam someone. Or did he ask you for your PIN?

[Jean]

Guido wrote :

 

account number and bank name alone are not enough to successfully scam someone

 

Fully agreed Guido.

 

Milt, explain how you can be conned (as Eager Beaver I could be interested )

[Keith Larman]

Barry, sorry to hear about the problems.

 

Obviously waiting to ship until everything is paid in full is the complete solution. It would be nice if we could trust folk, but if the buyer is that eager to get the thing they're buying they can pay in full right up front including all fees.

 

Generally what I'll tell people with any sort of big ticket item is that I will accept paypal "for the buyer's convenience". If they want to use paypal I'll need to figure out the paypal fees and I'll bill them with paypal accordingly. I.e., I'll adjust the price up to cover the extra cost.

 

This site is particularly helpful: http://ppcalc.com/ It allows you to compute the fees ahead of time and even has currency converters to get a ballpark. Usually that's good enough for me.

 

For international payments I overwhelmingly prefer wire transfers if possible. There is zero problem with giving out the relevant info -- account number and routing info (ABA, etc.). The only thing someone can do with that information is give you money. That's a good thing. What I have noticed is that it is increasingly difficult to send wire transfers from your own account. I used to be able to do it very easily from my on-line banking. No longer if it is of any high value. But that's my bank working harder to protect my account, so that's okay with me. There are fees with those as well, but for anything big ticket, they're miniscule in comparison to paypal's fees.

 

Good luck.

[Curran]

Dear Guido,

 

It has changed exponentially since the 1990s. Thanks to the internet, cell phones, hybridization of ATM cards with other accounts.... Easy ex: With your basic bank info and a little personal info a good hacker/spoofer/fraudster can get phone access to your account and build out from there. They can then apply for a wave of minor accounts and link them to yours and rip them off with advances, etc... very fast. The good ones can rip $100,000+ out of a bank account within about 7 to 10 days.

 

From discussions with people in the security side of this: Citibank has been a repeated target and they are slow to improve security, plus those india call centers of theirs are not secure.

[pcfarrar]

A well known BBC celebrity here in the UK published his bank account number and sort code in his newspaper column inviting people to try and take money from him.

 

Someone succeeded and he ended up with a £500 monthly subscription to a Diabetes charity :lol:

[Bungo]

" Milt, explain how you can be conned (as Eager Beaver I could be interested )

 

_________________

Jean "

 

 

if that dude in Soc. Gen . managed to over-ride the security measures...ummm, I wouldn't put too much faith in a French ( note the capital letter ) bank.

 

 

milt

[Jean]

if that dude in Soc. Gen . managed to over-ride the security measures...ummm, I wouldn't put too much faith in a French ( note the capital letter ) bank.

 

You just forgot to say it was an inside Job :D :D :D and no hacking was done

[Keith Larman]

From discussions with people in the security side of this: Citibank has been a repeated target and they are slow to improve security, plus those india call centers of theirs are not secure.

 

I left something out above. For me, I have a rather simple solution for that problem. I have a second account that I keep a small amount in to keep the account alive. That's the account I use to receive wire transfers but also to send them if need be. I move the money between the accounts the day I want to send and move received funds out asap as well.

 

FWIW as of a few months ago with Citi in order to do a wire transfer they will you go through all sorts of hoops. Their requirements for verifying your identity are so stringent now it was faster for me to just go down to the bank and do it in person instead. The problem here is the larger one of identity theft and you need more than just an account number. For instance, all the information you give for a wire transfer is on the face of every check you write. So checks to the local charity, paying at the grocery store, your credit card payments, etc. This isn't exactly difficult information to get. So think about all the checks you mail or hand out each month. It is more about the security of all those *other* things you do to verify your identity. Social security number, PIN's, ID's, passwords, etc. Heck, there were some waiters and waitresses in restaurants who were using portable card readers to scan customer's credit cards into the unit's memory as they took the card back for payment. They'd sell the card info to the thieves. Or the guys who put up a fake ATM out in public and gathered the card/pin combo's of everyone who tried the machine. The machines would read the card, prompt for the pin, then display an error message and spit the card out. It was the matching up of the account number with the pin that was critical.

 

The larger problem here is one of identity theft as I said. However, if you plan to buy anything you have to pay with something. And if you want to receive payment you're faced with issues as well. Credit card fraud is a problem for all sellers. Checks drawn on international banks mean very long delays to be *very* sure everything is on the up and up. Best way is an envelope of cold, hard currency, but that's not the easiest thing to do.

 

As always, if you think someone is trying to scam you, don't give them anything. Again, the issue is more about relative risk of various things. It would be nice to be totally invisible, but then you can't get paid...

[Keith Larman]

Forgot to add one thing. If you need to pay something with a check, if you have on-line banking with your account it is a lot safer to use than rather than cutting a check yourself. The bank takes the money from your account when you instigate an on-line payment. They then generate a paper check (if necessary) on your behalf. *That* check the payee receives does not have your banking info on it (at least in my experience). The bank takes your funds immediately, pops it into their own accounts, and then enjoys some benefit of a few days of the float. So if someone tries to get your account number of a bank generated on-line payment, it won't work.

 

And since we're talking about security, if you're buying stuff on-line try to use the credit card/bank card one-time use credit card software (if they have it). You can generate a one-time use virtual card number that has limits on the amount and expires within a month. I did an on-line purchase once for some relatively inexpensive software from a company I'd never heard of. I used a "virtual" card with a limit. Someone tried to use that number the next day to buy an air plane ticket on Malaysian Airlines. Didn't work. And yes, I received the software I ordered later. That company vanished soon after. But I never got charged for anything more than what I had ordered and received.

[Bungo]

all very valid points here but in my particular case, would you really want to provide banking info to a buyer with zero feedback, previously unkown to you, just to receive a bank wire transfer of less than 100 USD ( now peso ) ?

Just heeding Bush Sr.'s advice about being prudent.

 

milt

[Bungo]

" And since we're talking about security, if you're buying stuff on-line try to use the credit card/bank card one-time use credit card software (if they have it). You can generate a one-time use virtual card number that has limits on the amount and expires within a month. I did an on-line purchase once for some relatively inexpensive software from a company I'd never heard of. I used a "virtual" card with a limit. Someone tried to use that number the next day to buy an air plane ticket on Malaysian Airlines. Didn't work. "

 

and that is very disturbing !! How many of us know that an actual company selling real products is actually running a scam to gather credit info !! ??

Thanks for the tip .

 

milt

[Keith Larman]

all very valid points here but in my particular case, would you really want to provide banking info to a buyer with zero feedback, previously unkown to you, just to receive a bank wire transfer of less than 100 USD ( now peso ) ?

Just heeding Bush Sr.'s advice about being prudent.

 

milt

 

No doubt. And there are often fees involved even if it is legit. I don't bother with them unless we're talking serious money or people I know. But I still keep my funds segregated...

[Keith Larman]

and that is very disturbing !! How many of us know that an actual company selling real products is actually running a scam to gather credit info !! ??

Thanks for the tip .

 

milt

 

Any experienced internet person can set up a fully legitimate looking e-commerce website in an afternoon including a e-commerce shopping cart like system. Once the fraud is discovered they'll likely be taken down quickly, but...

[Jean]

Very interesting thread and not out of topic for it is a big issue for Nihontophiles.

 

Question : How come some websites as Tetsugendo, Aoi Art wish to be paid by wire transfer, give their bank account details on their websites and have not been hacked????

[Keith Larman]

Very interesting thread and not out of topic for it is a big issue for Nihontophiles.

 

Question : How come some websites as Tetsugendo, Aoi Art wish to be paid by wire transfer, give their bank account details on their websites and have not been hacked????

 

Like I said they need more information than that to hack it. And a desire to hack it in the first place. I don't worry much about it when I'm receiving wire transfers, but then again I receive my incoming funds in a small account kept distinct from accounts holding our savings, etc.

 

The balancing act is always risk vs. ease. For someone to remove money from your account they need certain things beyond just account number. it is increasingly difficult to even send a wire transfer without going to a bank in person and verifying your identity. Of course if someone has managed to steal your banking card, find your pin and have a quality fake ID (driver's license) they might be able to. But that takes some doing.

 

So the account number and your name by itself is not enough to get into your account. The problem is really the security of all the other stuff you need to gain access.

 

So back to the balancing act -- some prefer not to share any information whatsoever. Of course the side effect of that is that you can't possibly pay them unless it is in cash. As I've said, it isn't all that hard to set up a small second account at your bank. Use that for transactions if you're at all concerned. I personally don't give out my "main" account info. That just doesn't give me warm fuzzies.

 

Wire transfers are overwhelmingly the easiest way to do large transactions. Acting cautiously is always a good idea, however. And I would guess the big players utilize a distinct account to receive and send wire transfers. Once funds are in they get shuffled out accordingly. I seriously doubt those account have much of anything in them at any given point unless someone has *just* paid for something and they haven't moved it yet.