Breaking News On The All-Brown Army Gunto Tassel

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one (I recommend counting this as one; the sword above looks to also have a brown tassel but it is admittedly hard to make out)

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington Here is another one

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington  Here is another one

 

[John C]

I believe the navy also used brown tassels. Are there any differences between the army and navy ones or are they interchangeable? 

 

John C.

[mdiddy]

26 minutes ago, John C said:

I believe the navy also used brown tassels. Are there any differences between the army and navy ones or are they interchangeable? 

 

The navy tassels are a darker shade of brown. Attached is a picture showing a comparison.

They are not interchangeable, but I have seen several lighter brown tassels on kai guntos indicating the tassel was scavenged off something else (i.e. late war gunto or civil gunto) and then added to the kai gunto.

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

The colours can also fade on the naval tassels, adding another level of uncertainty to the mix. Below are all original naval tassels:

 

[John C]

I think number 3 in the first pic could pass as army if unaware. 

John C.

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

12 hours ago, mdiddy said:

Here is another one

For discussion purpose, not doubting your items, if I were discovering some of these on my own, via the web, I wouldn't file them.  Looking closely, you can sometimes see faded blue, meaning the whole tassel is an extremely faded brown/blue.

What do you think about this latest one?

 

 

[mdiddy]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

What do you think about this latest one?

 

This one looks entirely brown to my eye. Even if faded, a blue shade would be consistently seen, particularly around the seams as well as mixed in the tassels and I don't see either here. What I do see though are potential stains, inconsistently distributed, which is a very common occurrence on tassels.

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington 

 

Thanks for your continued tracking of the data! Would you be able to share an updated chart with all of the recent additions? Might be good for a quick refresh.

[Bruce Pennington]

Sure.  Here's what we've got so far.  Your examples just about evened up the score.

49 swords

23 Type 98

20 RS

5 Civil, leather covered saya

 

Brown Tassel

 

SWORD TYPE	SMITH	DATE	SOURCE
Civil	Unknown	ND	Tensho, NMB
Civil, re-fit	Yoshichika	ND	Kolekt-to, NMB
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cernie, ebay
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cb1100f.b10…..jp
Civil, re-fit	Mumei	ND	Civicsecondhand.ebay
T95	Suya/Tokyo 1st	Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later	GFL775, Gunbrds
T98 combat saya	Shigemitsu	ND	Deadoscilate, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masatsune	ND	Brian, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masayuki	1942	Waljamada, NMB
T98 combat saya	Sukenori	ND	Crow23, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kanetake	ND Large Seki stamp	CMD, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kiyonobu	1943	Nzef1940, W-A
T98 combat saya	Kaneshige	ND Large Seki stamp	Mark Shefly, W-A
T98 combat saya	Unknown	Unknown	RI auction
T98 combat saya	Mumei, old blade	ND	Gilbergauthie-5, ebay
T98 combat saya	Mumei, old blade	ND	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
T98 standard fittings	Yoshichika	ND	Nickindy, NMB
T98 standard fittings	Kaneyuki	1820	Bazza, NMB
T98 alum. Saya	Shoshin	1940 Aug	Mike T, NMB
T98 NCO blade	Nagoya	ND	The_Derz, NMB
T98 Occupied/late war	Mumei	ND	Doomsday Runner, NMB
T98	Kanesada	1944	Chrisfe, NMB
T98	Kiyonobu	1942, Mar	Mp409mm, W-A
T98	Mumei, old blade	ND	St Croix Blades
T98	Unknown	Unknown	Mortis, NMB
T98	Mumei	ND	Robinalexander, NMB
T98 Waki refit, leather	Tadayoshi, old blade	ND	Chip62287, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Norinaga, old blade	Koto	BenCld, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Kanenori	ND, Large Seki stamp	Dosh, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Kolekt-to, NMB
RS	Seisui	1944	George Trotter, NMB
RS	No blade photo	Unknown	Robinalexander, ebay
RS	Masayoshi, Star stamp	1944, Apr	Vajo, NMB
RS	Kanemune	1945, Feb	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
RS	Katsumasa	1945, Jan	PBacsuk, Warrelics
RS black saya	Kaneyuki	1945, Mar	Narvik1940, W-A
RS	Nagamitsu	ND	Sohei-swords
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Thanks for sharing this. I think there are a couple examples missing. I'm counting I provided 15 late war guntos and your tally is only showing 13. Would you mind re-checking?

 

I can probably get more sources than just Mdiddy, NMB. Would that be helpful?

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

T95 

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington

One more NCO

 

[mdiddy]

49 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

One more NCO

 

Thanks Trystan for sharing your findings.

 

One of the critiques of this entire analysis we are all contributing to will eventually be that there is little evidence to prove the tassels were not added later or swapped around after the war. As I have been researching, if there were any obvious signs a tassel may have been added later I discarded the result.

 

For the second NCO shown, the hanger looks to be that of an American M1902 saber. It's surely open for debate, but that kind of suggests the accoutrements on this NCO might have been added later to help with its sale. That would probably make a little more sense in the context of things. Anyway, just wanted to highlight it.

 

 

[Ian B3HR2UH]

You hit the nail on the head Bruce . Some of these have probably been through numerous hands since the war and who can say what is original and what is not . The attached one came to me ,many years ago ,from the family of the man who bought it back, so it is almost certainly original . The blade is koto and signed Kunitoshi . The green cord was also with it .

Ian Brooks

[mdiddy]

5 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said:

You hit the nail on the head Bruce . Some of these have probably been through numerous hands since the war and who can say what is original and what is not

 

@Ian B3HR2UH Yes, agreed, and thanks for the contribution Ian! One small clarification - my name is Matt, not Bruce. Regardless of the striking resemblance, Bruce and I are actually not the same person. I take it as a compliment to be mixed up as him though, haha!! J/K

 

Anyway, just a small clarification, we did business in the past but it has admittedly been awhile  

[Bruce Pennington]

19 hours ago, mdiddy said:

@Bruce Pennington

 

Thanks for sharing this. I think there are a couple examples missing. I'm counting I provided 15 late war guntos and your tally is only showing 13. Would you mind re-checking?

 

I can probably get more sources than just Mdiddy, NMB. Would that be helpful?

Matt,

The sources I list on all my charts are really so that I can go back to NMB, or the web, to search for the original photos.  So, listing you is sufficient for my purposes.  We could add your original sources if someone might think it useful, though.

 

As to the 2 missing, I find several gunto in my searches that at first appear to be all brown, but on closer look, are really almost completely faded blue/brown, so I don't include them in the chart.  I personally think 2 of the ones you posted fall into this category.  If you would still like them in there, I can add a "Possible" section for those we find like this.

 

12 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

T95 

After filing this one, I realized I had another wooden handle 95 from Neil, IJASWORDS, in the files!  So, there are 4 Type 95s on file, now.  

 

[mdiddy]

12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I personally think 2 of the ones you posted fall into this category.

 

@Bruce Pennington Thanks for the clarification. Would you mind pointing out which two tassels you find concerning? 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, mdiddy said:

which two tassels you find concerning?

Ok, after going back through them all, I found a couple filing errors (my administrative skills really suck).  I now have all 15 filed and charted.  There is only that one we discussed earlier that I still think is a faded blue/brown, but I put it in the chart for you.  Statistically, it's not going to throw anything off in a significant way.

With the added 2 Type 95s, the new stats are:

 

56 swords

5 Civil

4 Type 95

24 Type 98

23 RS

 

Brown Tassel

 

SWORD TYPE	SMITH	DATE	SOURCE
Civil	Unknown	ND	Tensho, NMB
Civil, re-fit	Yoshichika	ND	Kolekt-to, NMB
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cernie, ebay
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cb1100f.b10…..jp
Civil, re-fit	Mumei	ND	Civicsecondhand.ebay
T95	Suya/Tokyo 1st	Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later	GFL775, Gunbrds
T95	Unknown	Unknown	Bangbangsan, NMB
T95 Wooden tsuka	Nagoya	1944-45	IJASWORDS, NMB
T95 Wooden tsuka	Nagoya	1944-45	Bangbangsan, NMB
T98 combat saya	Shigemitsu	ND	Deadoscilate, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masatsune	ND	Brian, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masayuki	1942	Waljamada, NMB
T98 combat saya	Sukenori	ND	Crow23, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kanetake	ND Large Seki stamp	CMD, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kiyonobu	1943	Nzef1940, W-A
T98 combat saya	Kaneshige	ND Large Seki stamp	Mark Shefly, W-A
T98 combat saya	Unknown	Unknown	RI auction
T98 combat saya	Mumei, old blade	ND	Gilbergauthie-5, ebay
T98 combat saya	Mumei, old blade	ND	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
T98 standard fittings	Yoshichika	ND	Nickindy, NMB
T98 standard fittings	Kaneyuki	1820	Bazza, NMB
T98 alum. Saya	Shoshin	1940 Aug	Mike T, NMB
T98 NCO blade	Nagoya	ND	The_Derz, NMB
T98 Occupied/late war	Mumei	ND	Doomsday Runner, NMB
T98	Kanesada	1944	Chrisfe, NMB
T98	Kiyonobu	1942, Mar	Mp409mm, W-A
T98	Mumei, old blade	ND	St Croix Blades
T98	Unknown	Unknown	Mortis, NMB
T98	Unknown	Unknown	Ianb3hr2uh, NMB
T98	Mumei	ND	Robinalexander, NMB
T98 Waki refit, leather	Tadayoshi, old blade	ND	Chip62287, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Norinaga, old blade	Koto	BenCld, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Kanenori	ND, Large Seki stamp	Dosh, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Kolekt-to, NMB
RS	Seisui	1944	George Trotter, NMB
RS	No blade photo	Unknown	Robinalexander, ebay
RS	Masayoshi, Star stamp	1944, Apr	Vajo, NMB
RS	Kanemune	1945, Feb	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
RS	Katsumasa	1945, Jan	PBacsuk, Warrelics
RS black saya	Kaneyuki	1945, Mar	Narvik1940, W-A
RS	Nagamitsu	ND	Sohei-swords
RS 1	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 2	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 3	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 4	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 5	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 6	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 7	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 8	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 9	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 10	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 11	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 12	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 13	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
Rs 14	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB
RS 15	Unknown	Unknown	Mdiddy, NMB

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Thanks for the updates and appreciate your inclusion of those two, the chart looks good!

 

I found the one below that is interesting - a post-war souvenir with the brown tassel. Because it is post-war, it may or may not belong in the analysis. I wonder if the tassel on this one was added later to mimic a kai gunto tassel.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Well that's something new, no pun intended!  Not only was the tassel added, but the sarute, too.  I put it in the Souvenir Chart, and was tempted to put it in the Brown Tassel chart, simply as raw data, but if our Tassel chart's purpose is to track dates of use to see if we could decern whether the tassel was a late war Army or a unique design for Gunzoku, it doesn't help the investigation, at least on the early end of the date spectrum.  

 

I bet your theory explains it, Matt.  Sellers keep calling these Navy swords, so why not add a "Navy" tassel.  

[mdiddy]

On 7/1/2023 at 10:13 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

Sellers keep calling these Navy swords, so why not add a "Navy" tassel.  

 

100% agree, I think that one had treatment

 

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Excellent!  Didn't think of checking Dawson for one!

 

Here's a tough one.  Distant photo might imply a faded company grade, but the closer shot shows no sign of faded blue.  What say you?