Breaking News On The All-Brown Army Gunto Tassel

[Bruce Pennington]

Nice find, John!  Fascinating that so many of these are made by Kanezane.  I have 7 of his Showa stamped blades on file and 3, now, have the Gunzoku tsuba.  

Photos added for later when the link goes dead:

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

Here is a pic posted by Didier (Yukihiro) a couple of years ago. It looks gunto but has the civilian fuchi and (dirty) brown tassel.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks John, but I'm seeing very faded blue in that tassel.  Check between the knots and also in the tassel thread ends.

[Bruce Pennington]

Survey results complete from an NMB search.  Going to other websites next.  Haven't analyzed it yet, but quite surprised to see the majority are Type 98 refits, civil swords.

 

Brown Tassel

 

SWORD TYPE	SMITH	DATE	SOURCE
Civil	Unknown	ND	Tensho, NMB
Civil, re-fit	Yoshichika	ND	Kolekt-to, NMB
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cernie, ebay
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cb1100f.b10…..jp
T98 combat saya	Shigemitsu	ND	Deadoscilate, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masatsune	ND	Brian, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masayuki	1942	Waljamada, NMB
T98 combat saya	Suke ‘X’	ND	Crow23, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kanetake	ND Large Seki stamp	CMD, NMB
T98 standard fittings	Yoshichika	ND	Nickindy, NMB
T98 standard fittings	Kaneyuki	1820	Bazza, NMB
T98 alum. Saya	Shoshin	1940 Aug	Mike T, NMB
T98 NCO blade	Nagoya	ND	The_Derz, NMB
T98 Occupied/late war	Mumei	ND	Doomsday Runner, NMB
T98	Kanesada	1944	Chrisfe, NMB
T98 Waki refit, leather	Tadayoshi, old blade	ND	Chip62287, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Norinaga, old blade	Koto	BenCld, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Kanenori	ND, Large Seki stamp	Dosh, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Kolekt-to, NMB
RS	Seisui	1944	George Trotter, NMB
RS	No blade photo	Unknown	Robinalexander, ebay
RS	Masayoshi, Star stamp	1944, Apr	Vajo, NMB

[paulatim]

Excellent work Bruce!  Thank you for your efforts. 

[John C]

13 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks John, but I'm seeing very faded blue in that tassel.  Check between the knots and also in the tassel thread ends.

I noticed the other color and waffled a bit. I eventually settled on shiny dirt but you are probably right (I mean you are correct).

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Chart updated with search complete on NMB, Warrelics, Wehrmacht-awards, and Gunboards.  A couple more RS added along with a Type 95!  

 

Observations - Earliest dating for sighted brown tassels still 1940.  The 2 Showa stamped blades, technically could have been as early as 1935, but the odds are strong that it was no earlier than 1940.  The large Seki stamp showed up in 1940 and later.  Even the Type 95 with the Tokyo 1st Arsenal star is likely 1942 or later.  So, based off dating only, the appearance of the all brown tassel seems to coincide with the 1940 Uniform Regulation change assigning the tassel to the Gunzoku.

 

Only 6 of the observed 27 swords were Rinji Seishiki models, dispelling, so far, the impression (mine too) that the majority of these tassels are seen on RS gunto.

 

My final thought, for now, is that 1940 doesn't seem very "late war."  I know that Japan had been at war for several years by that point (7'ish?), so 1940 could be considered late-war in that context, but in 1940-41, Japan was really strong and expanding.  "Late war" terminology is normally associated with the end-of-the-war years when war materiel was getting scarce and manufacturing quality was being downgraded due to shortages.  Right now, I'm thinking the 'late war' label is becoming outdated for this tassel.  Just my opinion, though.

 

Brown Tassel

 

SWORD TYPE	SMITH	DATE	SOURCE
Civil	Unknown	ND	Tensho, NMB
Civil, re-fit	Yoshichika	ND	Kolekt-to, NMB
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cernie, ebay
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cb1100f.b10…..jp
T95	Suya/Tokyo 1st	Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later	GFL775, Gunbrds
T98 combat saya	Shigemitsu	ND	Deadoscilate, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masatsune	ND	Brian, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masayuki	1942	Waljamada, NMB
T98 combat saya	Sukenori	ND	Crow23, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kanetake	ND Large Seki stamp	CMD, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kiyonobu	1943	Nzef1940, W-A
T98 combat saya	Kaneshige	ND Large Seki stamp	Mark Shefly, W-A
T98 standard fittings	Yoshichika	ND	Nickindy, NMB
T98 standard fittings	Kaneyuki	1820	Bazza, NMB
T98 alum. Saya	Shoshin	1940 Aug	Mike T, NMB
T98 NCO blade	Nagoya	ND	The_Derz, NMB
T98 Occupied/late war	Mumei	ND	Doomsday Runner, NMB
T98	Kanesada	1944	Chrisfe, NMB
T98 Waki refit, leather	Tadayoshi, old blade	ND	Chip62287, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Norinaga, old blade	Koto	BenCld, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Kanenori	ND, Large Seki stamp	Dosh, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Kolekt-to, NMB
RS	Seisui	1944	George Trotter, NMB
RS	No blade photo	Unknown	Robinalexander, ebay
RS	Masayoshi, Star stamp	1944, Apr	Vajo, NMB
RS	Kanemune	1945, Feb	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
RS black saya	Kaneyuki	1945, Mar	Narvik1940, W-A

[John C]

I think the obvious caveat is that the tassel is so easily removed and replaced. How many of these are original after 78 years? It would be interesting to see some old photos where the tassel color could be identified as part of the survey. 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

46 minutes ago, John C said:

old photos

Problem with that is almost all WWII photos are black and white.

 

I agree about the problem of not knowing whether a tassel was original to the sword.  I tried to not include frankensteins.  As long as each one fits the growing norm, I'm comfortable.  Have no other way to discriminate.

[robinalexander]

Bruce, @Bruce Pennington

 

One of my 98's, came from auction with brown tassel (54 cm). Blade and seppa had what I believe was cosmoline so a period touch.

 

Mumei...oil quenched. Two ana and nice habaki & seppa.

 

Unusually, it sports a brown samagawa (ray) covered saya (nice) and I have always believed the original tassel was matched to the sword post war...but who knows.

 

Another for your thoughts.

Rob

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Rob!  Really nice gunto.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It is rather unfortunate now that it's difficult to establish if a tassel is original to a sword. Period photos or swords with good provenance wouod be more reliable to count where possible. 

[Bruce Pennington]

51 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

good provenance

Not at home with my computer right now, but I believe I have two with solid providence. I will update when able, probably tomorrow morning.

[robinalexander]

FY Interest, brown tassel on civilian (late war) sword .....more pics on Ebay Australia at moment.

 

1930s IJA Japanese Officers Army sword with tiger pommel & brown tassel knot | eBay

 

Description includes "Overall sword measures 95cm (not including scabbard) and has a Japanese officers, brown Showa 9 shin-gunto late war Type 94 tassel sword knot for all officers ranks. Checkout my other militaria as i do combine shipping."

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Good one, Rob!

 

Tried looking up the swords with provenance, but I didn't keep a screenshot of the post.  I'd have to re-search each of the 30 on file to find the stories.

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, robinalexander said:

more pics on Ebay Australia at moment.

Boy, Rob, China has saturated AU ebay, haven't they!?  I think I only saw 2 (including this one) real WWII gunto.  The rest were fakes.

[Bruce Pennington]

On 6/5/2023 at 8:02 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

It is rather unfortunate now that it's difficult to establish if a tassel is original to a sword. Period photos or swords with good provenance wouod be more reliable to count where possible. 

Just came across this one, John.  Justin, @Mortis posted with this explanation, HERE.

"Here’s one. All of the other fitting numbers match, so I can’t imagine the tassel isn’t original as well. This sword was found wrapped in a blanket in the rafters of a barn in Pennsylvania. Those that I obtained it from weren’t collectors. With that in mind, I highly doubt it was added at a later time."

[Bruce Pennington]

Update

 

Running out of places to look, but up to 35 swords with all brown tassel in the chart now.  No change to earlier post and conclusions.  Out of 35 gunto, only 7 are Rinji seishiki.  5 are fully civil. 1 Type 95.  One Type 98 with an NCO blade.  That leaves 21 Type 98s in various configurations.

 

Brown Tassel

 

SWORD TYPE	SMITH	DATE	SOURCE
Civil	Unknown	ND	Tensho, NMB
Civil, re-fit	Yoshichika	ND	Kolekt-to, NMB
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cernie, ebay
Civil w/Sakura tsuba	Kanezane	ND; Showa stamp	Cb1100f.b10…..jp
Civil, re-fit	Mumei	ND	Civicsecondhand.ebay
T95	Suya/Tokyo 1st	Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later	GFL775, Gunbrds
T98 combat saya	Shigemitsu	ND	Deadoscilate, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masatsune	ND	Brian, NMB
T98 combat saya	Masayuki	1942	Waljamada, NMB
T98 combat saya	Sukenori	ND	Crow23, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kanetake	ND Large Seki stamp	CMD, NMB
T98 combat saya	Kiyonobu	1943	Nzef1940, W-A
T98 combat saya	Kaneshige	ND Large Seki stamp	Mark Shefly, W-A
T98 combat saya	Unknown	Unknown	RI auction
T98 combat saya	Mumei, old blade	ND	Gilbergauthie-5, ebay
T98 combat saya	Mumei, old blade	ND	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
T98 standard fittings	Yoshichika	ND	Nickindy, NMB
T98 standard fittings	Kaneyuki	1820	Bazza, NMB
T98 alum. Saya	Shoshin	1940 Aug	Mike T, NMB
T98 NCO blade	Nagoya	ND	The_Derz, NMB
T98 Occupied/late war	Mumei	ND	Doomsday Runner, NMB
T98	Kanesada	1944	Chrisfe, NMB
T98	Mumei, old blade	ND	St Croix Blades
T98	Unknown	Unknown	Mortis, NMB
T98	Mumei	ND	Robinalexander, NMB
T98 Waki refit, leather	Tadayoshi, old blade	ND	Chip62287, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Norinaga, old blade	Koto	BenCld, NMB
T98 Civil tsuba	Kanenori	ND, Large Seki stamp	Dosh, NMB
RS	Unknown	Unknown	Kolekt-to, NMB
RS	Seisui	1944	George Trotter, NMB
RS	No blade photo	Unknown	Robinalexander, ebay
RS	Masayoshi, Star stamp	1944, Apr	Vajo, NMB
RS	Kanemune	1945, Feb	Panzerfaust, Gunbrds
RS	Katsumasa	1945, Jan	PBacsuk, Warrelics
RS black saya	Kaneyuki	1945, Mar	Narvik1940, W-A

1

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington Great job tracking the real data!

I have a bunch I can add. 

 

Here is one that was on ebay recently: https://www.ebay.com/itm/225595288981

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Good one, Matt!  Keep them coming!

[mdiddy]

Here is another one

 

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

 

 

[John C]

12 minutes ago, mdiddy said:

Here is another one

Matt:

Was it standard on the RS models to attach the tassel directly or would it have been issued with a sarute of some sort?

John C.

[george trotter]

Hope I'm not intruding, but the answer to the question on whether the tassel was attached directly to the pommel is...yes. The sarute, if seen, appears to be a personal preference of the officer.

This drawing from a 1944 booklet on the Rinji Seishiki shows the 'correct' way to attach the tassel.

Hope this helps.

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, John C said:

Was it standard on the RS models to attach the tassel directly or would it have been issued with a sarute of some sort?

Agree with George, and most I see don't have a tassel, but the one's with one come in a variety of sarute or completely without, like in the diagram.

Discussed some here:

Type 3 Tassel Sarute

and more at length, here

Tassels for Rinji Seishiki

[John C]

Thank you George and Bruce. My Rinji Seishiki did not come with a tassel and I had wondered.

John C.

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington Here are a couple more

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Matt @mdiddy,

For the chart, are there 3 here, or are the bottom 2 of the same gunto?

[mdiddy]

21 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

For the chart, are there 3 here, or are the bottom 2 of the same gunto?

 

The bottom 2 photos are of the same gunto, so only two additional total for the chart

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one