Breaking News On The All-Brown Army Gunto Tassel

[mdiddy]

4 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

What say you?

 

Hmm, that's a tough one. I have been looking for conclusive evidence on the tassel, both sides of the cord, and/or the edges of the cord. I zoomed in on this one and the edges may be a little bit of a different color but it's not conclusive. Also we can't see the tassel or both sides of the cord. So, it's a toss-up in my mind, your call.

 

 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is one more from Dawson's

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, mdiddy said:

it's a toss-up in my mind, your call.

Thanks for trying.  It's the right year, a 1944 Masanori with Gifu and small Seki stamps, so, like the other one, I'll add.  As raw data, I'd rather have them accounted for in case they prove useful than going the other way and some day saying "Dang, where was that so-and-so brown tassel we weren't sure about."

[Bruce Pennington]

Just for comparison, here's a Type 95 with officer tassel, that I'd tilt on the side of very faded Company grade.  Wanted to call it all brown, but I'm leaning Company grade.

[mdiddy]

14 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Wanted to call it all brown, but I'm leaning Company grade

 

I agree - this one is more conclusively not an all brown tassel. We can see both sides of the cord and while faded they are different colors. Also we can see the different shades of tassels, faded blue vs. brown. 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

Here is another one

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Another example of how difficult these can be.  On an udated, showa-stamped Tofuji blade with the 5 measures hotstamp, found what appeared to be an all brown tassel.  But then I found it posted again on another thread and the second photo shows the blue in 2 places:

 

First thread

 

Second

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a good one, posted by @Swords HERE.

[PNSSHOGUN]

One more, note the pre-war style tassel with thin straps:

 

https://www.liveauct...fficers-sword-katana

 

[Swords]

Hi Bruce I’m not sure what your getting at about this brown tassel and what my sword posted has to do with any of this ?

 

 

 

steve

 

 

[Swords]

I forgot to mention about the hada on my sword post here The hada almost looks like flames

Is that unusual for a older sword? And dose anyone have an ideal what period it was made

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

54 minutes ago, Swords said:

Hi Bruce I’m not sure what your getting at about this brown tassel and what my sword posted has to do with any of this ?

steve

 

 

Steve,

We are using this thread to track swords with the all-brown tassel.  Yours has one.  You'd have to go back to page 1 of the thread to see the debate, but in short, for years, the brown tassel has been called an IJA late war tassel (meaning for active military), but in recent times, Nick Komiya at Warrelics discovered a 1940 Uniform reg change that assigned the brown tassel to Gunzoku, civil branch of the military.  I have been charting swords with such tassels in hopes of pinning down a date-range of their use and existance.

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

[jeep44]

Here's a 98 that I've had for many years, that came to me with this brown tassel on it. unusual that the actual "tassels" are missing-apparently cut off. The sword was stored poorly, and the blade is in poor condition-the name on the handle is barely visible through the heavy rust.

[PNSSHOGUN]

You do see the tassels ends cut off on surrendered swords now and again. Not quite sure of the significance, perhaps it's the same wheelhouse of defacing Kamon, Chrysanthemum's or family names from various items.

[John C]

The tassels on my 98 were in really rough shape when I got it (from poor storage). They were literally crumbling off. I managed to preserve some of it but I can see where someone may cut them off due to damage.

John C. 

[mdiddy]

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

[dwmc]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:55 PM, PNSSHOGUN said:

You do see the tassels ends cut off on surrendered swords now and again. Not quite sure of the significance, perhaps it's the same wheelhouse of defacing Kamon, Chrysanthemum's or family names from various items.

 

I've long felt a missing tassel/tassels ends were a result the Japanese officer either purposely defacing the tassel or removing one or both ends as a momento of the sword they were required to surrender. 

 

The tassel below is a possible example attached to a Shin Gunto I've owned for many years.

 

Dave M.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

I think you are all dreamers !  Why "cut" off one tassel and not the other ?  The Japanese only had to surrender their swords which is why we don't see many belts or hangers with them . Why not simply take the tassel off as well . Perhaps that is the explanation for why we see so many swords without tassels on them , the Japanese took them off prior to surrendering the sword !! ( I am not being serious here). Is a more likely explanation simply that the tassel became unstitched or wore out. ?

Ian Brooks

[dwmc]

With all due respect Ian and keeping the subject on the side of not being particularly serious. I still have to side with John as most tassel ends were intentionally cut. If anyone is dreaming  it's thinking one or both tassel ends wore out and fell off ... Please!

 

No, it certainly doesn't make sense to most of us, but who knows what one is thinking in the heat of the circumstance. However, definitely a occurrence which shows up occasionally of which we may never know the true answer.

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

[Bruce Pennington]

The wear would be uniformly obvious throughout the whole tassel.  I don’t see any wear & tear elsewhere on this one.

[John C]

5 hours ago, dwmc said:

 it's thinking one or both tassel ends wore out and fell off ... Please!

Here is a pic of the one that came with my type 98. It had been stored around too much heat and moisture and was literally crumbling. The pic was from when I was trying to restore it and stabilize it. As you can see, it was the blue threads there were crumbling and falling off, however the brown threads were breaking as well.

John C.

[dwmc]

Good example John, my comment implied deterioration was never the case whereas it may certainly be in many situations. I suspect the tassels ends are actually the "weak link" with Japanese sword tassels.

I do maintain however in the case of mine and many others do appear to be purposely cut for whatever the reason.

 

This is the fun and yet frustration with collecting and studying Japanese swords how small seemingly insignificant situations such as this occur when there doesn't appear to a definitive answer...

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

 

[dwmc]

Possible clue.... notice the tassel in jeep44's photo, take note of the tassel ends being folded over and back which lay beneath tassel itself. I submit in most deterioration cases, the tassel threads and ball would fall away yet the folded lanyard would remain intact. 

 

A cut tassel would appear severed and would not have the sewn fold back end section.

 

My apologies Bruce for veering off original subject!

 

Best regards,

 

Dave M.

[John C]

No doubt cut. Just thinking the reason for the cuts may have been due to deterioration as opposed to some other symbolism.

John C.

[george trotter]

On 7/13/2023 at 10:23 AM, mdiddy said:

@Bruce Pennington

 

Here is another one

 

 

Just in the interests of accuracy on sword fittings/tassels...I have to say that this sword had no tassel when I got it... I just put one on (briefly) for a photo. Sorry.

BTW the balde is a star stamped example by Nakata Kanehide  of Seki dated 1944...VERY good smith.

I am just wondering out loud but probably? a gunzoku would not be able to buy a RJT blade from an Army Kokeisha store?...probably sales were limited to Army officers and not permitted to "attached" civilian type gunzoku officers (doctors, engineers, admin guys etc)....one for Bruce to investigate?

Regards (sorry again I put a tassel on a sword without knowing what tassel it should be).

 

[mdiddy]

12 hours ago, george trotter said:

BTW the balde is a star stamped example by Nakata Kanehide  of Seki dated 1944...VERY good smith.

 

Any chance this Kanehide was missing the tsuka-ito originally? It has been a long time, but I recall selling you a Nakata Kanehide a long while ago (ca. 2012?) that was missing the tsuka-ito. It was a really nice blade, star-stamped, big gunome hamon from what I recall. Here is a picture that I had from way back.

 

 

[george trotter]

Hi Matt, YES, that is the Kanehide I bought from you in 2012.

And yes, it had no hilt binding or same when you sold it to me.

I rebound it using original ito, same and menuki from a spare RS hilt I had found somewhere, so it is actually a totally correct WWII Seki RS binding.

I took that photo of it to "commemorate" my one and only attempt at binding. Here is another pic of the finished job...turned out well I thought. I actually put that tassel on to "make it look good" for the photo, but later took the tassel off again as I didn't think it was "right".

I still appreciate that sword...a good sword from a good maker. (and purchased from a good NMB member).

Regards,

PS the blue painted  "ku 52" is not on the tang...can't remember if it was there when it arrived or whether it was partly worn off (except for the 'ku' over the kanji 'Seki'), and, the 52 being painted over the mei, I rubbed these off so the mei was easily readable?...anyway, it was a historical 'dumb' thing I did...live and learn eh!.

PPS...for my file, do you remember who/where you got it from? Any WWII history?

[mdiddy]

8 hours ago, george trotter said:

Here is another pic of the finished job...turned out well I thought.

 

Looks to me like it turned out GREAT! Really cool that you were able to achieve it using original ito, which is no small task. Kudos on rebuilding it.

I got that sword from another collector who I believe purchased it from a motel buy. I'll inquire if they recall any extra information on it.

It was interesting that yours was in the late war mount with gray saya. Most of the other Kanehide I have seen were in Type 98 koshirae (I had a 1940 dated Kanehide once) or mounted in the late war mount with black saya and lacquered tsuka-ito. 

[george trotter]

Hi Matt, thanks for your kind words.

Yes, I was very lucky to get the exact right stuff to do a correct restoration of this hilt. All parts correct. In fact, I am sure the hilt I "raided" was from an identical style RS from Seki...only 'flaw' is a spot of paint we can see on the ito.

And thanks for offering to check with the collector you got this from, I would appreciate any info you can dig up on this sword's history.

Just on the saya colour, this one and all those others of this type from Seki I have seen are coloured what I would call "light khaki"....not "gray".

Regards