mdiddy Posted June 20, 2023 Report Posted June 20, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 20, 2023 Report Posted June 20, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one (I recommend counting this as one; the sword above looks to also have a brown tassel but it is admittedly hard to make out) 1 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 22, 2023 Report Posted June 22, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 22, 2023 Report Posted June 22, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
John C Posted June 22, 2023 Report Posted June 22, 2023 I believe the navy also used brown tassels. Are there any differences between the army and navy ones or are they interchangeable? John C. Quote
mdiddy Posted June 23, 2023 Report Posted June 23, 2023 26 minutes ago, John C said: I believe the navy also used brown tassels. Are there any differences between the army and navy ones or are they interchangeable? The navy tassels are a darker shade of brown. Attached is a picture showing a comparison. They are not interchangeable, but I have seen several lighter brown tassels on kai guntos indicating the tassel was scavenged off something else (i.e. late war gunto or civil gunto) and then added to the kai gunto. 2 1 Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted June 23, 2023 Report Posted June 23, 2023 The colours can also fade on the naval tassels, adding another level of uncertainty to the mix. Below are all original naval tassels: 4 1 Quote
John C Posted June 23, 2023 Report Posted June 23, 2023 I think number 3 in the first pic could pass as army if unaware. John C. Quote
mdiddy Posted June 24, 2023 Report Posted June 24, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 26, 2023 Author Report Posted June 26, 2023 12 hours ago, mdiddy said: Here is another one For discussion purpose, not doubting your items, if I were discovering some of these on my own, via the web, I wouldn't file them. Looking closely, you can sometimes see faded blue, meaning the whole tassel is an extremely faded brown/blue. What do you think about this latest one? Quote
mdiddy Posted June 26, 2023 Report Posted June 26, 2023 8 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: What do you think about this latest one? This one looks entirely brown to my eye. Even if faded, a blue shade would be consistently seen, particularly around the seams as well as mixed in the tassels and I don't see either here. What I do see though are potential stains, inconsistently distributed, which is a very common occurrence on tassels. Quote
mdiddy Posted June 27, 2023 Report Posted June 27, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 28, 2023 Report Posted June 28, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 28, 2023 Report Posted June 28, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Thanks for your continued tracking of the data! Would you be able to share an updated chart with all of the recent additions? Might be good for a quick refresh. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 28, 2023 Author Report Posted June 28, 2023 Sure. Here's what we've got so far. Your examples just about evened up the score. 49 swords 23 Type 98 20 RS 5 Civil, leather covered saya Brown Tassel SWORD TYPE SMITH DATE SOURCE Civil Unknown ND Tensho, NMB Civil, re-fit Yoshichika ND Kolekt-to, NMB Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cernie, ebay Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cb1100f.b10…..jp Civil, re-fit Mumei ND Civicsecondhand.ebay T95 Suya/Tokyo 1st Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later GFL775, Gunbrds T98 combat saya Shigemitsu ND Deadoscilate, NMB T98 combat saya Masatsune ND Brian, NMB T98 combat saya Masayuki 1942 Waljamada, NMB T98 combat saya Sukenori ND Crow23, NMB T98 combat saya Kanetake ND Large Seki stamp CMD, NMB T98 combat saya Kiyonobu 1943 Nzef1940, W-A T98 combat saya Kaneshige ND Large Seki stamp Mark Shefly, W-A T98 combat saya Unknown Unknown RI auction T98 combat saya Mumei, old blade ND Gilbergauthie-5, ebay T98 combat saya Mumei, old blade ND Panzerfaust, Gunbrds T98 standard fittings Yoshichika ND Nickindy, NMB T98 standard fittings Kaneyuki 1820 Bazza, NMB T98 alum. Saya Shoshin 1940 Aug Mike T, NMB T98 NCO blade Nagoya ND The_Derz, NMB T98 Occupied/late war Mumei ND Doomsday Runner, NMB T98 Kanesada 1944 Chrisfe, NMB T98 Kiyonobu 1942, Mar Mp409mm, W-A T98 Mumei, old blade ND St Croix Blades T98 Unknown Unknown Mortis, NMB T98 Mumei ND Robinalexander, NMB T98 Waki refit, leather Tadayoshi, old blade ND Chip62287, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Norinaga, old blade Koto BenCld, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Kanenori ND, Large Seki stamp Dosh, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Kolekt-to, NMB RS Seisui 1944 George Trotter, NMB RS No blade photo Unknown Robinalexander, ebay RS Masayoshi, Star stamp 1944, Apr Vajo, NMB RS Kanemune 1945, Feb Panzerfaust, Gunbrds RS Katsumasa 1945, Jan PBacsuk, Warrelics RS black saya Kaneyuki 1945, Mar Narvik1940, W-A RS Nagamitsu ND Sohei-swords RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB Quote
mdiddy Posted June 28, 2023 Report Posted June 28, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Thanks for sharing this. I think there are a couple examples missing. I'm counting I provided 15 late war guntos and your tally is only showing 13. Would you mind re-checking? I can probably get more sources than just Mdiddy, NMB. Would that be helpful? Quote
BANGBANGSAN Posted June 29, 2023 Report Posted June 29, 2023 @Bruce Pennington One more NCO 1 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 29, 2023 Report Posted June 29, 2023 49 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said: One more NCO Thanks Trystan for sharing your findings. One of the critiques of this entire analysis we are all contributing to will eventually be that there is little evidence to prove the tassels were not added later or swapped around after the war. As I have been researching, if there were any obvious signs a tassel may have been added later I discarded the result. For the second NCO shown, the hanger looks to be that of an American M1902 saber. It's surely open for debate, but that kind of suggests the accoutrements on this NCO might have been added later to help with its sale. That would probably make a little more sense in the context of things. Anyway, just wanted to highlight it. Quote
Ian B3HR2UH Posted June 29, 2023 Report Posted June 29, 2023 You hit the nail on the head Bruce . Some of these have probably been through numerous hands since the war and who can say what is original and what is not . The attached one came to me ,many years ago ,from the family of the man who bought it back, so it is almost certainly original . The blade is koto and signed Kunitoshi . The green cord was also with it . Ian Brooks 2 1 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 29, 2023 Report Posted June 29, 2023 5 hours ago, Ian B3HR2UH said: You hit the nail on the head Bruce . Some of these have probably been through numerous hands since the war and who can say what is original and what is not @Ian B3HR2UH Yes, agreed, and thanks for the contribution Ian! One small clarification - my name is Matt, not Bruce. Regardless of the striking resemblance, Bruce and I are actually not the same person. I take it as a compliment to be mixed up as him though, haha!! J/K Anyway, just a small clarification, we did business in the past but it has admittedly been awhile 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 29, 2023 Author Report Posted June 29, 2023 19 hours ago, mdiddy said: @Bruce Pennington Thanks for sharing this. I think there are a couple examples missing. I'm counting I provided 15 late war guntos and your tally is only showing 13. Would you mind re-checking? I can probably get more sources than just Mdiddy, NMB. Would that be helpful? Matt, The sources I list on all my charts are really so that I can go back to NMB, or the web, to search for the original photos. So, listing you is sufficient for my purposes. We could add your original sources if someone might think it useful, though. As to the 2 missing, I find several gunto in my searches that at first appear to be all brown, but on closer look, are really almost completely faded blue/brown, so I don't include them in the chart. I personally think 2 of the ones you posted fall into this category. If you would still like them in there, I can add a "Possible" section for those we find like this. 12 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said: T95 After filing this one, I realized I had another wooden handle 95 from Neil, IJASWORDS, in the files! So, there are 4 Type 95s on file, now. 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 30, 2023 Report Posted June 30, 2023 12 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said: I personally think 2 of the ones you posted fall into this category. @Bruce Pennington Thanks for the clarification. Would you mind pointing out which two tassels you find concerning? Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 30, 2023 Author Report Posted June 30, 2023 9 hours ago, mdiddy said: which two tassels you find concerning? Ok, after going back through them all, I found a couple filing errors (my administrative skills really suck). I now have all 15 filed and charted. There is only that one we discussed earlier that I still think is a faded blue/brown, but I put it in the chart for you. Statistically, it's not going to throw anything off in a significant way. With the added 2 Type 95s, the new stats are: 56 swords 5 Civil 4 Type 95 24 Type 98 23 RS Brown Tassel SWORD TYPE SMITH DATE SOURCE Civil Unknown ND Tensho, NMB Civil, re-fit Yoshichika ND Kolekt-to, NMB Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cernie, ebay Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cb1100f.b10…..jp Civil, re-fit Mumei ND Civicsecondhand.ebay T95 Suya/Tokyo 1st Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later GFL775, Gunbrds T95 Unknown Unknown Bangbangsan, NMB T95 Wooden tsuka Nagoya 1944-45 IJASWORDS, NMB T95 Wooden tsuka Nagoya 1944-45 Bangbangsan, NMB T98 combat saya Shigemitsu ND Deadoscilate, NMB T98 combat saya Masatsune ND Brian, NMB T98 combat saya Masayuki 1942 Waljamada, NMB T98 combat saya Sukenori ND Crow23, NMB T98 combat saya Kanetake ND Large Seki stamp CMD, NMB T98 combat saya Kiyonobu 1943 Nzef1940, W-A T98 combat saya Kaneshige ND Large Seki stamp Mark Shefly, W-A T98 combat saya Unknown Unknown RI auction T98 combat saya Mumei, old blade ND Gilbergauthie-5, ebay T98 combat saya Mumei, old blade ND Panzerfaust, Gunbrds T98 standard fittings Yoshichika ND Nickindy, NMB T98 standard fittings Kaneyuki 1820 Bazza, NMB T98 alum. Saya Shoshin 1940 Aug Mike T, NMB T98 NCO blade Nagoya ND The_Derz, NMB T98 Occupied/late war Mumei ND Doomsday Runner, NMB T98 Kanesada 1944 Chrisfe, NMB T98 Kiyonobu 1942, Mar Mp409mm, W-A T98 Mumei, old blade ND St Croix Blades T98 Unknown Unknown Mortis, NMB T98 Unknown Unknown Ianb3hr2uh, NMB T98 Mumei ND Robinalexander, NMB T98 Waki refit, leather Tadayoshi, old blade ND Chip62287, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Norinaga, old blade Koto BenCld, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Kanenori ND, Large Seki stamp Dosh, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Kolekt-to, NMB RS Seisui 1944 George Trotter, NMB RS No blade photo Unknown Robinalexander, ebay RS Masayoshi, Star stamp 1944, Apr Vajo, NMB RS Kanemune 1945, Feb Panzerfaust, Gunbrds RS Katsumasa 1945, Jan PBacsuk, Warrelics RS black saya Kaneyuki 1945, Mar Narvik1940, W-A RS Nagamitsu ND Sohei-swords RS 1 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 2 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 3 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 4 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 5 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 6 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 7 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 8 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 9 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 10 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 11 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 12 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 13 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB Rs 14 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB RS 15 Unknown Unknown Mdiddy, NMB Quote
mdiddy Posted June 30, 2023 Report Posted June 30, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Thanks for the updates and appreciate your inclusion of those two, the chart looks good! I found the one below that is interesting - a post-war souvenir with the brown tassel. Because it is post-war, it may or may not belong in the analysis. I wonder if the tassel on this one was added later to mimic a kai gunto tassel. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted July 1, 2023 Author Report Posted July 1, 2023 Well that's something new, no pun intended! Not only was the tassel added, but the sarute, too. I put it in the Souvenir Chart, and was tempted to put it in the Brown Tassel chart, simply as raw data, but if our Tassel chart's purpose is to track dates of use to see if we could decern whether the tassel was a late war Army or a unique design for Gunzoku, it doesn't help the investigation, at least on the early end of the date spectrum. I bet your theory explains it, Matt. Sellers keep calling these Navy swords, so why not add a "Navy" tassel. 1 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted July 2, 2023 Report Posted July 2, 2023 On 7/1/2023 at 10:13 AM, Bruce Pennington said: Sellers keep calling these Navy swords, so why not add a "Navy" tassel. 100% agree, I think that one had treatment @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted July 2, 2023 Author Report Posted July 2, 2023 Excellent! Didn't think of checking Dawson for one! Here's a tough one. Distant photo might imply a faded company grade, but the closer shot shows no sign of faded blue. What say you? Quote
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