Bruce Pennington Posted May 29, 2023 Author Report Posted May 29, 2023 Nice find, John! Fascinating that so many of these are made by Kanezane. I have 7 of his Showa stamped blades on file and 3, now, have the Gunzoku tsuba. Photos added for later when the link goes dead: 1 Quote
John C Posted June 3, 2023 Report Posted June 3, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is a pic posted by Didier (Yukihiro) a couple of years ago. It looks gunto but has the civilian fuchi and (dirty) brown tassel. John C. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 3, 2023 Author Report Posted June 3, 2023 Thanks John, but I'm seeing very faded blue in that tassel. Check between the knots and also in the tassel thread ends. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 3, 2023 Author Report Posted June 3, 2023 Survey results complete from an NMB search. Going to other websites next. Haven't analyzed it yet, but quite surprised to see the majority are Type 98 refits, civil swords. Brown Tassel SWORD TYPE SMITH DATE SOURCE Civil Unknown ND Tensho, NMB Civil, re-fit Yoshichika ND Kolekt-to, NMB Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cernie, ebay Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cb1100f.b10…..jp T98 combat saya Shigemitsu ND Deadoscilate, NMB T98 combat saya Masatsune ND Brian, NMB T98 combat saya Masayuki 1942 Waljamada, NMB T98 combat saya Suke ‘X’ ND Crow23, NMB T98 combat saya Kanetake ND Large Seki stamp CMD, NMB T98 standard fittings Yoshichika ND Nickindy, NMB T98 standard fittings Kaneyuki 1820 Bazza, NMB T98 alum. Saya Shoshin 1940 Aug Mike T, NMB T98 NCO blade Nagoya ND The_Derz, NMB T98 Occupied/late war Mumei ND Doomsday Runner, NMB T98 Kanesada 1944 Chrisfe, NMB T98 Waki refit, leather Tadayoshi, old blade ND Chip62287, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Norinaga, old blade Koto BenCld, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Kanenori ND, Large Seki stamp Dosh, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Kolekt-to, NMB RS Seisui 1944 George Trotter, NMB RS No blade photo Unknown Robinalexander, ebay RS Masayoshi, Star stamp 1944, Apr Vajo, NMB 1 Quote
paulatim Posted June 3, 2023 Report Posted June 3, 2023 Excellent work Bruce! Thank you for your efforts. Quote
John C Posted June 4, 2023 Report Posted June 4, 2023 13 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said: Thanks John, but I'm seeing very faded blue in that tassel. Check between the knots and also in the tassel thread ends. I noticed the other color and waffled a bit. I eventually settled on shiny dirt but you are probably right (I mean you are correct). John C. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 4, 2023 Author Report Posted June 4, 2023 Chart updated with search complete on NMB, Warrelics, Wehrmacht-awards, and Gunboards. A couple more RS added along with a Type 95! Observations - Earliest dating for sighted brown tassels still 1940. The 2 Showa stamped blades, technically could have been as early as 1935, but the odds are strong that it was no earlier than 1940. The large Seki stamp showed up in 1940 and later. Even the Type 95 with the Tokyo 1st Arsenal star is likely 1942 or later. So, based off dating only, the appearance of the all brown tassel seems to coincide with the 1940 Uniform Regulation change assigning the tassel to the Gunzoku. Only 6 of the observed 27 swords were Rinji Seishiki models, dispelling, so far, the impression (mine too) that the majority of these tassels are seen on RS gunto. My final thought, for now, is that 1940 doesn't seem very "late war." I know that Japan had been at war for several years by that point (7'ish?), so 1940 could be considered late-war in that context, but in 1940-41, Japan was really strong and expanding. "Late war" terminology is normally associated with the end-of-the-war years when war materiel was getting scarce and manufacturing quality was being downgraded due to shortages. Right now, I'm thinking the 'late war' label is becoming outdated for this tassel. Just my opinion, though. Brown Tassel SWORD TYPE SMITH DATE SOURCE Civil Unknown ND Tensho, NMB Civil, re-fit Yoshichika ND Kolekt-to, NMB Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cernie, ebay Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cb1100f.b10…..jp T95 Suya/Tokyo 1st Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later GFL775, Gunbrds T98 combat saya Shigemitsu ND Deadoscilate, NMB T98 combat saya Masatsune ND Brian, NMB T98 combat saya Masayuki 1942 Waljamada, NMB T98 combat saya Sukenori ND Crow23, NMB T98 combat saya Kanetake ND Large Seki stamp CMD, NMB T98 combat saya Kiyonobu 1943 Nzef1940, W-A T98 combat saya Kaneshige ND Large Seki stamp Mark Shefly, W-A T98 standard fittings Yoshichika ND Nickindy, NMB T98 standard fittings Kaneyuki 1820 Bazza, NMB T98 alum. Saya Shoshin 1940 Aug Mike T, NMB T98 NCO blade Nagoya ND The_Derz, NMB T98 Occupied/late war Mumei ND Doomsday Runner, NMB T98 Kanesada 1944 Chrisfe, NMB T98 Waki refit, leather Tadayoshi, old blade ND Chip62287, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Norinaga, old blade Koto BenCld, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Kanenori ND, Large Seki stamp Dosh, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Kolekt-to, NMB RS Seisui 1944 George Trotter, NMB RS No blade photo Unknown Robinalexander, ebay RS Masayoshi, Star stamp 1944, Apr Vajo, NMB RS Kanemune 1945, Feb Panzerfaust, Gunbrds RS black saya Kaneyuki 1945, Mar Narvik1940, W-A Quote
John C Posted June 4, 2023 Report Posted June 4, 2023 I think the obvious caveat is that the tassel is so easily removed and replaced. How many of these are original after 78 years? It would be interesting to see some old photos where the tassel color could be identified as part of the survey. John C. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 4, 2023 Author Report Posted June 4, 2023 46 minutes ago, John C said: old photos Problem with that is almost all WWII photos are black and white. I agree about the problem of not knowing whether a tassel was original to the sword. I tried to not include frankensteins. As long as each one fits the growing norm, I'm comfortable. Have no other way to discriminate. Quote
robinalexander Posted June 5, 2023 Report Posted June 5, 2023 Bruce, @Bruce Pennington One of my 98's, came from auction with brown tassel (54 cm). Blade and seppa had what I believe was cosmoline so a period touch. Mumei...oil quenched. Two ana and nice habaki & seppa. Unusually, it sports a brown samagawa (ray) covered saya (nice) and I have always believed the original tassel was matched to the sword post war...but who knows. Another for your thoughts. Rob 2 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 5, 2023 Author Report Posted June 5, 2023 Thanks Rob! Really nice gunto. Quote
PNSSHOGUN Posted June 6, 2023 Report Posted June 6, 2023 It is rather unfortunate now that it's difficult to establish if a tassel is original to a sword. Period photos or swords with good provenance wouod be more reliable to count where possible. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 6, 2023 Author Report Posted June 6, 2023 51 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said: good provenance Not at home with my computer right now, but I believe I have two with solid providence. I will update when able, probably tomorrow morning. 1 Quote
robinalexander Posted June 9, 2023 Report Posted June 9, 2023 FY Interest, brown tassel on civilian (late war) sword .....more pics on Ebay Australia at moment. 1930s IJA Japanese Officers Army sword with tiger pommel & brown tassel knot | eBay Description includes "Overall sword measures 95cm (not including scabbard) and has a Japanese officers, brown Showa 9 shin-gunto late war Type 94 tassel sword knot for all officers ranks. Checkout my other militaria as i do combine shipping." 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 9, 2023 Author Report Posted June 9, 2023 Good one, Rob! Tried looking up the swords with provenance, but I didn't keep a screenshot of the post. I'd have to re-search each of the 30 on file to find the stories. Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 9, 2023 Author Report Posted June 9, 2023 11 hours ago, robinalexander said: more pics on Ebay Australia at moment. Boy, Rob, China has saturated AU ebay, haven't they!? I think I only saw 2 (including this one) real WWII gunto. The rest were fakes. 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 9, 2023 Author Report Posted June 9, 2023 On 6/5/2023 at 8:02 PM, PNSSHOGUN said: It is rather unfortunate now that it's difficult to establish if a tassel is original to a sword. Period photos or swords with good provenance wouod be more reliable to count where possible. Just came across this one, John. Justin, @Mortis posted with this explanation, HERE. "Here’s one. All of the other fitting numbers match, so I can’t imagine the tassel isn’t original as well. This sword was found wrapped in a blanket in the rafters of a barn in Pennsylvania. Those that I obtained it from weren’t collectors. With that in mind, I highly doubt it was added at a later time." Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 14, 2023 Author Report Posted June 14, 2023 Update Running out of places to look, but up to 35 swords with all brown tassel in the chart now. No change to earlier post and conclusions. Out of 35 gunto, only 7 are Rinji seishiki. 5 are fully civil. 1 Type 95. One Type 98 with an NCO blade. That leaves 21 Type 98s in various configurations. Brown Tassel SWORD TYPE SMITH DATE SOURCE Civil Unknown ND Tensho, NMB Civil, re-fit Yoshichika ND Kolekt-to, NMB Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cernie, ebay Civil w/Sakura tsuba Kanezane ND; Showa stamp Cb1100f.b10…..jp Civil, re-fit Mumei ND Civicsecondhand.ebay T95 Suya/Tokyo 1st Ser # not shown; but likely 1942 or later GFL775, Gunbrds T98 combat saya Shigemitsu ND Deadoscilate, NMB T98 combat saya Masatsune ND Brian, NMB T98 combat saya Masayuki 1942 Waljamada, NMB T98 combat saya Sukenori ND Crow23, NMB T98 combat saya Kanetake ND Large Seki stamp CMD, NMB T98 combat saya Kiyonobu 1943 Nzef1940, W-A T98 combat saya Kaneshige ND Large Seki stamp Mark Shefly, W-A T98 combat saya Unknown Unknown RI auction T98 combat saya Mumei, old blade ND Gilbergauthie-5, ebay T98 combat saya Mumei, old blade ND Panzerfaust, Gunbrds T98 standard fittings Yoshichika ND Nickindy, NMB T98 standard fittings Kaneyuki 1820 Bazza, NMB T98 alum. Saya Shoshin 1940 Aug Mike T, NMB T98 NCO blade Nagoya ND The_Derz, NMB T98 Occupied/late war Mumei ND Doomsday Runner, NMB T98 Kanesada 1944 Chrisfe, NMB T98 Mumei, old blade ND St Croix Blades T98 Unknown Unknown Mortis, NMB T98 Mumei ND Robinalexander, NMB T98 Waki refit, leather Tadayoshi, old blade ND Chip62287, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Norinaga, old blade Koto BenCld, NMB T98 Civil tsuba Kanenori ND, Large Seki stamp Dosh, NMB RS Unknown Unknown Kolekt-to, NMB RS Seisui 1944 George Trotter, NMB RS No blade photo Unknown Robinalexander, ebay RS Masayoshi, Star stamp 1944, Apr Vajo, NMB RS Kanemune 1945, Feb Panzerfaust, Gunbrds RS Katsumasa 1945, Jan PBacsuk, Warrelics RS black saya Kaneyuki 1945, Mar Narvik1940, W-A 1 1 Quote
mdiddy Posted June 16, 2023 Report Posted June 16, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Great job tracking the real data! I have a bunch I can add. Here is one that was on ebay recently: https://www.ebay.com/itm/225595288981 2 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 16, 2023 Author Report Posted June 16, 2023 Good one, Matt! Keep them coming! Quote
mdiddy Posted June 18, 2023 Report Posted June 18, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here is another one 1 Quote
John C Posted June 18, 2023 Report Posted June 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, mdiddy said: Here is another one Matt: Was it standard on the RS models to attach the tassel directly or would it have been issued with a sarute of some sort? John C. Quote
george trotter Posted June 18, 2023 Report Posted June 18, 2023 Hope I'm not intruding, but the answer to the question on whether the tassel was attached directly to the pommel is...yes. The sarute, if seen, appears to be a personal preference of the officer. This drawing from a 1944 booklet on the Rinji Seishiki shows the 'correct' way to attach the tassel. Hope this helps. 1 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 18, 2023 Author Report Posted June 18, 2023 10 hours ago, John C said: Was it standard on the RS models to attach the tassel directly or would it have been issued with a sarute of some sort? Agree with George, and most I see don't have a tassel, but the one's with one come in a variety of sarute or completely without, like in the diagram. Discussed some here: Type 3 Tassel Sarute and more at length, here Tassels for Rinji Seishiki 1 Quote
John C Posted June 18, 2023 Report Posted June 18, 2023 Thank you George and Bruce. My Rinji Seishiki did not come with a tassel and I had wondered. John C. Quote
mdiddy Posted June 19, 2023 Report Posted June 19, 2023 @Bruce Pennington Here are a couple more 1 Quote
Bruce Pennington Posted June 19, 2023 Author Report Posted June 19, 2023 Matt @mdiddy, For the chart, are there 3 here, or are the bottom 2 of the same gunto? Quote
mdiddy Posted June 19, 2023 Report Posted June 19, 2023 21 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said: For the chart, are there 3 here, or are the bottom 2 of the same gunto? The bottom 2 photos are of the same gunto, so only two additional total for the chart Quote
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