Breaking News On The All-Brown Army Gunto Tassel

[Bruce Pennington]

Unless you follow Nick Komiya, at Warrelics, you probably haven't EVER heard this before!

 

Nick has translated a regulation change, dated August 1940, that specified the all-brown tassel for use by the enlisted equivalent of the Gunsoku, civilian officials, both the Ko-in (lance corporal) and Hanin-ko (NCO). This is in conflict with the info in Dawson's book which called it a "Late war" IJA officer tassel; however Dawson doesn't cite his source. I've used the email published in his book to ask about this, but it's an email sponsored by the publisher.

 

Anyone have contact info for Jim Dawson so we can pursue this?

 

Further discussion on the page is chasing the idea that the Army all-brown tassel is 51cm long, compared to the Navy all-brown, which is 37cm long! Pictures in the original commissioning of the Type 97 gunto seem to confirm this.

 

Both Dawson & Komiya affirm that civilian officials were authorized to carry standard Type 98 gunto, so according to Nick, an authintic vet bring-back 98 with all brown tassel was one carried by a Civilian official, NOT an IJA officer.

 

The conversation is happening here: www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

 

Thoughts?

[george trotter]

That is also my understanding Bruce.

My Japanese teacher's father was a medical officer attached to the Japanese Army in New Guinea. She told me that "he wasn't an army officer as such" but as he was involved in the medical side of things in the occupied area (I think she said Rabaul) he wore an officer uniform and carried a sword with a brown tassel. Unfortunately he drowned when the ship he was on returning to Japan was bombed and sunk.

 

I have no "official" proof, but based on her plain words have always considered the brown tassel as "civilian in army uniform" issue. The difference in length between these civilian/army tassels and the navy tassel I was not aware of, although I did notice there was a difference.

Hope this helps,

[Stephen]

Nice nuggets of new info!

[vajo]

Wow thats cool. I bought a Type98 koshirae with not standard fittings (silver plated) with green ito. With the swords Koshirae came a brown tassel very used and broken. I thougt someone has completed that koshirae with that navy officer tassel. 

 

Nice info Bruce, thanks a lot.

[celt72]

Very cool news Bruce. I'm glad to hear of the clarification on the subject!

[Brian]

Nick is like gold as always.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi Bruce, GREAT INFORMATION AGAIN! Jim Dawson's contact details are in the front of his book. 

[Shamsy]

I was reading about the tassels with interest a few days ago, Bruce. We're very lucky to have all this new information being uncovered, especially when it is both in contradiction to existing information and from about as good a source as you can find (archives).

 

Mr Dawson still responds to the email address provided in the book, as I've used this to discuss swords previously. That's the best bet.

[IJASWORDS]

Photo of examples from my swords. Blue/brown Army officer above, plain brown army in middle, and Navy example below showing length and color comparisons.   

[george trotter]

Wow thats cool. I bought a Type98 koshirae with not standard fittings (silver plated) with green ito. With the swords Koshirae came a brown tassel very used and broken. I thougt someone has completed that koshirae with that navy officer tassel. 

 

Nice info Bruce, thanks a lot.

Interesting. Many years ago I acquired a Type 98 with dark red saya paint and dark green ito. It also had silver plated fittings (tassel missing). The blade was by ishido Teruhide.

Since there are now at least two of these identified I wonder if these are a "unit variation" mounting?

Regards,

[PNSSHOGUN]

Perhaps from the same higher end officer supply store?

[vajo]

George thanks. I will take some pictures of the koshirae in the evening. Its exciting for me to know more. Maybe it is a similar one.

[lonely panet]

heres two tassels, i dont collect IJA stuff  anymore, but i hope this could be helpful

[Bruce Pennington]

That is also my understanding Bruce.

My Japanese teacher's father was a medical officer attached to the Japanese Army in New Guinea. She told me that "he wasn't an army officer as such" but as he was involved in the medical side of things in the occupied area (I think she said Rabaul) he wore an officer uniform and carried a sword with a brown tassel. Unfortunately he drowned when the ship he was on returning to Japan was bombed and sunk.

 

I have no "official" proof, but based on her plain words have always considered the brown tassel as "civilian in army uniform" issue. The difference in length between these civilian/army tassels and the navy tassel I was not aware of, although I did notice there was a difference.

Hope this helps,

George - fabulous confirmation of Nick's interpretation of this.

 

Wow! How cool to watch actual "breaking news" in our collecting world!!!

[Mister Gunto]

I just read that thread, very interesting!

[Bruce Pennington]

Photo of examples from my swords. Blue/brown Army officer above, plain brown army in middle, and Navy example below showing length and color comparisons.

 

Neil,

 

Your examples seem to go opposite of what was being discussed about lengths! Your Navy tassel is 54cm vs the 37cm idea, and the Army (and the all-brown) is around 46cm, which doesn't fit the proposal at all?!?

 

I'm out on a work trip and will get home late Friday night. Saturday I'll measure mine and see what I come up with.

 

Hmmmmmm.....

[PNSSHOGUN]

The early tassels I have are often significantly longer than the ones made during WW2.

[IJASWORDS]

For a statistical sample of the blue/brown, here are about 20 of mine, around 51cm, give and take a bit of stretch and age.  

[vajo]

George thanks. I will take some pictures of the koshirae in the evening. Its exciting for me to know more. Maybe it is a similar one.

 

The pictures of the koshirae.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

For a statistical sample of the blue/brown, here are about 20 of mine, around 51cm, give and take a bit of stretch and age.  

I measured mine and 51cm was the norm as well, only a Navy tassel and one company grade were shorter at 47cm. The ones I had I thought were significantly longer had about 1-2cm on the others, all a matter of perspective.

[Bruce Pennington]

For a statistical sample of the blue/brown, here are about 20 of mine, around 51cm, give and take a bit of stretch and age.

 

Neil,

 

My all-brown came in at 46cm too! As did one of my Navy and a Field grade tassel.

 

My Company grade was 54cm

 

and 3 Navy ones were the shortest at 43cm!

[george trotter]

Hi Chris,

My sword had the same colour ito, the same silver plated metal fittings, but was different in that

(1) my tsuka was the standard Type 98 tsuka, not civilian type.

(2) my saya colour was a very definite red, not the brown red like yours.

 

While the silver fittings and the green ito colour are the same, I think it wise to be cautious about calling it a "unit variation" .

I think there are enough variations in mounts and colour to at this stage just call it an interesting coincidence, not a definite "type".

Hope this helps,

[Bencld]

My koshirae has almost exactly the same fittings which appear to be silver and brown lacquer saya. It has an iron tsuba.  When I got this it had the remnents of a brown tassel on it which is why it was described as navy when it does not look like kai gunto at all. It has been remarked that the ito has been re wrapped but it has been mentioned that these sets have green ito and the other posted picture is green as well. I wonder if mine is original even with the flecks in it.

[vajo]

Good morning George,

 

Thanks a lot. Thats very interesting.

I think that Koshirae was for an higher ranked employee. Maybe he come from kyushu because of the sageo theme. I found some pictures of civilians carrying swords in the Japanese army. On ebay sometimes are photos available in good quality showing none army tsuka. But i never see a tassel on that swords.

There is some space now for researches.

 

Chris, these are nice fittings too.

[george trotter]

Hi Chris D,

Your sword is essentially the same as the one I had...only mine had a standard military tsube (silver plated) and the saya colour was a little "redder in colour. My saya was metal.

The other difference is that mine had no "design" on the green ito. Otherwise, very close indeed. Keep searching guys, maybe we will get to discover a new gunto "variation".

Regards,

[Stephen]

Chris (bencld)

Just outstanding gunto.

Is there any loss of saya lacquer? If so is ther same under it?

[Bencld]

Hi. There is a tiny knock and lost lacquer and it is timber underneath, no same. The saya is quite lite. 

[Raphael Pauli]

Hi guys,

 

To feed the debate, here a picture of my tassel. I just bought it and there was no knot at the end, I binded it myself. As you can see, mine is really short (about 30 cm). Your opinion?

 

Kind regards

IMG_0671.pdf

[Bruce Pennington]

Rather than hijack another thread where this topic was raised, recently, I thought I'd transfer the discussion to this thread, dedicated to the all brown tassel.  Matt, @mdiddy raised the point that a majority of these tassels seem to be observed on the Rinji seishiki gunto that other styles.  It would be great if someone could start a survey of swords found with this tassel, looking for owner attribution, surrender tags, dated blades, etc, to see if we can get a firmer feel for gunto styles (including civil swords brought to the war) and date ranges.

 

An interesting point is that the August 1940 Uniform Regulation update, assigning the all brown tassel to Gunzoku memebers coincides with the same year the RS gunto was officially announced and released.

 

I just came across these two Kanezane gunto in my files.  Both are undated, and are in leather covered saya, and bear the Civil sakura tsuba, which I believe indicates the owner was Gunzoku (could be wrong).  One has the brown/blue tassel and the other the all brown.  Both are Showa-stamped, so their most likely manufacture range is 1939-1941.  A theory (and only that) - Both sword were owned by Gunzoku personnel, the one with the brown/blue tassel was prior to the Uniform reg change, and the one with the all brown came after it.  Lots of hypothesizing, I know, and other theories are welcome to the discussion!

 

Brown/blue

 

All brown

[John C]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I just came across these two Kanezane gunto in my files.  Both are undated, and are in leather covered saya, and bear the Civil sakura tsuba, which I believe indicates the owner was Gunzoku (could be wrong).  One has the brown/blue tassel and the other the all brown.  Both are Showa-stamped, so their most likely manufacture range is 1939-1941. 

Here's a gunzoku with the remnants of a brown tassel on Ebay now.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334889216905

John C.