My father's sword

[Bobcat]

My father died recently, and I have a sword he brought back from Japan in WWII. I posted these pics on another board, and it was identified by someone there as mei Yamashiro-no-kuni Ju Minamoto-no-Tsunahiro, being made circa 1673-1688. The length of the blade is approx 29". It's also in a cloth sheath, which I'm told is authentic.

 

That other message board is for Japanese firearms, not swords. I found you guys, so I hope I can get more information here.

 

I'd like to know more about the sword. Specifically:

Can someone give me a rough idea of how much it's worth? Basically a guess?

Does anyone know a local expert I can take it to for inspection/appraisal? I'm in New Jersey (USA).

 

I don't intend to sell the sword, but would consider having it polished if it would help preserve it.

 

Also, please be gentle with me, as the terminology is completely new to me.

 

 

[huntershooter]

I'd contact Moses Bacerra in NYC re. polish. He may provide you with some insight as to blades worth as well.

[Gabriel L]

Hi Bob,

 

First of all, congratulations on what looks to be a nice authentic nihonto in reasonably good condition (for a WWII bringback). I have just one question: what's with the color of the mei (signature)? Has it been enhanced with some talcum powder (ok), or is the patina actually stripped (bad)?

 

Before you do anything else at all, Please check out Dr. Stein's Japanese Sword Guide (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm) specifically the articles on DOs/DON'Ts (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/care.htm) and more in-depth maintenance (http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/care/handling.htm). THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE: don't try to polish or "fix" the blade yourself as you *will* ruin it, probably permanently. It would be far better to maintain it as it is now than to attempt an amateur "polish." Other than that, just keep it clean, don't try using it, avoid touching it with bare skin (bad for the blade, possibly bad for you ), etc.

 

I confirm the signature as Yamashiro Kuni ju Minamoto Tsunahiro. This essentially means Tsunahiro of Yamashiro province made the blade (Minamoto is a surname). Hawley's "Japanese Swordsmiths" lists this smith as signing with a variety of signatures, including this precise one; he is placed at 1673-88. Hawley's rates him at 15 points which is somewhat meaningless since he rates a lot of smiths around that level. There is a single note of "wide suguba" meaning that the hamon (hard white edge steel pattern from differential hardening) is straight(-ish) and wide.

 

Hawley's also states that he is the "same as Ise Yoshihiro," which is a little interesting as Ise Yoshihiro (2nd gen) is listed to have worked around 1716. So apparently the smith moved from Yamashiro to Ise? Assuming this information is valid.

 

This doesn't mean a great deal about the quality of your particular blade, but is a good context at least. From the single photo you gave of the blade itself, and the measurements, it looks good; 29" is a long katana blade, which will enhance the value as many of that length have since been cut down somewhat. And the early Edo period is not a bad one for quality (better in general than the preceding Muromachi period for sure).

 

We will definitely need a wider variety of much more detailed photos before anyone can really comment on the quality however. Closeup photos of the point, the overall nakago (tang, from top to bottom including the notches where the blade starts), some closeups of the hada (grain in the steel surface) and hamon (white edge steel), overall pics of the blade from both sides (bare, and as un-distorted as possible), etc. Try to make sure there is enough light to bring out all the details; I like late afternoon light coming in from a window to make things pop. That is a very primitive photography strategy and we don't expect you to be an overnight expert in revealing every subtle nuance, but try your best anyway. Do NOT use a flash, use a tripod if you have one. Do not shrink the resultant photos down to tiny thumbnails if you can help it; medium-sized photos (about the size you posted) with links to higher-res photos are a great bet.

 

At any rate I think from the photo you have that it should be restorable; however, such can be very costly, around $80-100 USD per inch of blade edge. Still, that would be the only way to fully appreciate the artistry of the steel and best preserve it for the future. But do look into bringing it in person to a Japanese sword club or polisher (Moses would absolutely qualify on that front). They will be able to tell you more than photos could. And depending on the state of any rust, it could be enjoyed and maintained as-is without a brand new art polish.

 

And welcome to NMB!

[Guest reinhard]

There were many generations of smiths signing "TSUNAHIRO" between early 15th and later 19th century. This particular signature might be a match with a TSUNAHIRO most active during Genroku-period (1688-1703). The signature of your sword is not too far from the only comparable mei I found by quick research. Here it is for comparison. Other members might come up with additional infos.

 

reinhard

[John A Stuart]

Hi Gabriel, The Muromachi period is fairly long and saying early Edo period shinto swords are generally better is quite misleading and just not true. John

[Grey Doffin]

Bob,

A polish isn't necessary to preserve the sword; a very light coat of Japanese sword clove oil, or fine machine oil on the blade, except for the dark tang, is all that's necessary. I would recommend you learn more before you have a polish done; polishes are easily scratched and beginners often scratch polishes.

Look for a Japanese sword care and etiquette page online. There should be one in the links at NMB home page, or google NBTHK American Branch and find the one on their website. Learn how to properly care for and handle your sword.

Value: hard to say from just a few pictures but maybe $2,000. wouldn't be too far off the truth. This, of course, presupposes that there are no serious flaws on your blade, something we don't know for a fact yet.

Hope this helps. Grey

[Gabriel L]

Hi Gabriel, The Muromachi period is fairly long and saying early Edo period shinto swords are generally better is quite misleading and just not true. John

 

Fair enough... sometimes I need to ponder the taste of my foot.

[Brian]

Gabriel,

That was a very informative and good post though! I think you were hinting that early Shinto is usually (yes..of course there are exceptions) better than late Koto in general

Good advice on the care and restoration.

 

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Toko Taikan lists one who signed also Omi no kami fujiwara Tsunahiro; he worked in Enpo Era (1673-1681). Rated 2 millions yen.

 

[Bobcat]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still in shock that this is a valuable sword. I see that Moses (Moises?) Becerra is a 2+ hour drive each way from me, but it would be worth the trip for a professional evaluation.

 

Gabriel, that is some sort of powder on the mei. I'm guessing that someone put it there at some point to make it easier to read. My father had taken the sword to someone many years ago, but I don't know what came of that. Now I wish I asked my father more about it.

 

Sorry for the quality of the photos. I just laid the sword on a bath towel, and the bits of the towel obscure the edge of the blade so it looks ugly. It looks much better in person.

 

Jacques, 2 million yen is US$19,000. Are you saying my sword could be worth that much? Perhaps if in perfect condition...

 

Thanks again, guys. And, no, I won't try to do anything to the sword.

[Brian]

Hi Bob,

 

We all wish

No..the yen ranking system is just a rating system used in the books. Basically it gives an indication comparatively vs other smiths. It isn't a literal value.

I also don't think this is your smith. Yours might be gimei (a false signature often used to make a sword seem more desirable) but it could be from one of the other Tsunahiro smiths.

All in all, I think the mentioned value of around $2K is a fair one, unless there is a problem that reduces it.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jacques, 2 million yen is US$19,000. Are you saying my sword could be worth that much? Perhaps if in perfect condition...

 

Don't dream Bob, Toko taikan applies a yen value as others attribute points; it is purely virtual, this smith is not highkly ranked in regard of Tomonari (35 million).

[remzy]

There were many generations of smiths signing "TSUNAHIRO" between early 15th and later 19th century. This particular signature might be a match with a TSUNAHIRO most active during Genroku-period (1688-1703). The signature of your sword is not too far from the only comparable mei I found by quick research. Here it is for comparison. Other members might come up with additional infos.

 

reinhard

 

I dont know Reinhard, some of the kanji strokes arent in the same direction, like in the second, thirds and last ones. I dont know if this is enough to make it gimei, but it certainly enough to raise suspicions.

[Gabriel L]

Gabriel,

That was a very informative and good post though! I think you were hinting that early Shinto is usually (yes..of course there are exceptions) better than late Koto in general

Good advice on the care and restoration.

 

Brian

Very kind of you Brian... I was indeed spewing weak stereotypes about late Koto vs early Shinto (or trying to). :lol: Still, best avoid generalization in the first place.

 

What about the Toko Taikan scan Jacques D. posted? To my eyes that mei is very close to that of Bob's sword. Closer than the example Reinhard posted, which I already felt wasn't too bad despite a couple of discrepancies. Actually what I find interesting is that Bob's shows characters and strokes similar to elements of both sources mixed together.

 

Of course, if you're going to fake a mei the Toko Taikan is a very well known and available menu of choices, so that doesn't really say anything either way. Bob, the only way to really tell if it's gimei (false mei) is to assess both the workmanship and the signature together - one more reason to bring it to someone in person.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Fujishiro also lists this smith and wonders if he can be from the Soshu line.

About the mei, i don't think it is gimei, the way of engraving looks very similar, atari match and it is not a big name.

[Bobcat]

I see that Moses Becerra is Vice President of the New York Metropolitan Japanese Sword Club. Do you know if he'd be able to look at it if I brought it to one of their meetings, or should I just take it out to Long Island?

 

Also, I really don't understand the mei:

 

Yamashiro-no-kuni Ju Minamoto-no-Tsunahiro

 

What do the various words mean? One is a location? Does one identify a particular individual, or is it the name of group of swordsmiths?

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Yamashiro no kuni = Yamashiro province

Ju = living in

Minamoto = family or clan

Tsunahiro = swordsmith art name

 

should be read like this; Minamoto Tsunahiro living in Yamashiro.

[Brian]

Bob,

 

By all means, drop him an email and ask his recommendation. I would think they would be happy to have you bring it in to one of the meetings. He is a decent and well known guy. He might even know someone closer to you.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Brian]

I agree with Jacques, it is a close match, and looks shoshin (genuine signature) to me.

 

Brian

[Bobcat]

Tsunahiro = swordsmith art name

 

What do you mean by "swordsmith art name"? Is that the name of a particular swordsmith shop or the type of work they do or...?

[Brian]

Swordsmiths rarely used their own real name. They took on an art name, and this is the one they signed with, and became known as. Later generations would use the same name, or maybe take a character from that name and add one of their own.

So basically your swordsmith is Tsunahiro...history doesn't usually record what their real names were.

 

Brian

[Bobcat]

OK, thanks! All you guys have been extremely helpful.

[Guest reinhard]

I agree with Jacques, it is a close match, and looks shoshin (genuine signature) to me.

 

The mei in the Toko Taikan shown by Jacques (which can also be seen in Fujishiro's "Nihon Toko Jiten") is so very similar to this one, it's almost scary. - Anyway the sword should definitely be shown to an expert.

 

There was a minor confusion about biographical infos. Fuijishiro and Iimura give the same informations:

He was originally from the Tsunahiro-school in Sagami, lived and worked basically in Kyoto, but also resided in Ise province. His most active time was Enpo era (1673-1680).

Fujishiro mentions the title "Omi-no-Kami". Iimura does not in vol.1, but in vol.2 the Shinto Meikan lists one of his signatures as "Omi-no-Kami Minamoto Tsunahiro" and gives Genroku (1688-1703) as his most active period. He also signed "Ise Yoshihiro".

 

My guess: He was an offspring of 5th mainline generation Tsunahiro (Ise-Daijo Tsunahiro), who died Genroku 11. Since he wasn't the heir of the Tsunahiro tradition, he exiled to Kyoto (and Ise)

 

reinhard

[Brian]

Thanks for the additional info Reinhard. I think you and Jacques have this one locked down.

This is one of the few mei that I have seen where I can honestly say it is almost a perfect match. I would be surprised if it wasn't shoshin to this smith. I think we finally found a shoshin mei! :lol: :D

Nice work guys. Odd..since we are supposed to be famous for not assisting newbies all that much. :lol:

 

Brian

[Bobcat]

You guys were all extremely helpful. Thanks especially for the work regarding the mei. My plan is to take the sword to the next Metropolitan New York Japanese Sword Club meeting and see what the folks there have to say. Are any of you in the area and attend the meetings?

[Gabriel L]

I am in the area and am hoping to attend the next meeting. I've only visited once before, and in the last 3 months have had conflicts, but am determined to return. Perhaps I'll see you there.

[Bobcat]

Gabriel, I should be easy to spot -- I'll be the clueless newbie with the sword.

 

In a previous post, you gave some suggestions for taking photos. I'm going to try to take more photos soon. But what color background would you suggest? White, black, something else? I'll get some posterboard to lay it on.

[Gabriel L]

Photographing nihonto is difficult even for knowledgeable photographers and collectors. The best background depends on your ability with a camera, the adjustability of your equipment, desired effect, etc.

 

I'd say try to find a neutral (mid-tone) colorless background. Too dark or light a background can trick the camera into over- or under-exposing the sword. Of course, this can be compensated for with proper technique; for example, the manual exposure setting can be critical in such cases. During closeups, if you're using a point-and-shoot digital camera, switch to "macro" mode (a flower icon on Canon models) to help with focus.

 

The textbook style is with a pure black background, but those are skillfully produced photos that involve some careful setups and often post-processing to get just right. Conversely, more natural shots that give an idea of the environmental lighting can be informative IMHO.

 

The golden rule with all photography is lighting. Experiment on this aspect. There's no guaranteed simple rule for success.

 

For some good examples of what good photos of nihonto can look like, according to a variety of approaches, check out the following sites:

http://www.ronbingham.com/sword_photography.htm
http://www.nihonto.ca (be sure to view the slideshows, not just the elegant but austere cover pics!)
http://www.nihonto.us
http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/main.php
http://www.legacyswords.com/fs_ant_daito.htm
http://www.nihontoantiques.com/

There are other links on the main page of the http://www.nihontomessageboard.com site that you might check out as well, the above was just a selection.

 

Let me just say once again however that this is a tricky aspect of the hobby and ultimately not as important as getting the blade into the hands of someone who knows the subject well. Even the best photos do not compare to viewing a work in person after all. So just have fun with it, and I'm sure we'll be happy to see the results.

[Bobcat]

It turns out there's writing on the bag! One character looks like the number 2, but I have no idea what the other three characters are.

 

I took a close look at the blade with my untrained eye. I see only one tiny nick. I don't see any cracks. Photographs will have to wait for better lighting.

[Gabriel L]

I have to get up early otherwise I'd look more, but I'll quickly post the easy part:

 

? = ?

å±± = YAMA

二 = NI (futa?)

å¹³ = TAIRA (hira?)

 

The correct reading and meaning is not jumping out at me except maybe as the owner's name. But I don't know Japanese, someone else will be along shortly with some real info I expect.