change of values

[John A Stuart]

I was reading the post about Ed's Sadanobu and it brought to mind that at various times in the history of sword manufacture certain characteristics would be more desirable given the political climate than at others. For example the mass produced swords of the Muromachi period as compared to the swords of, say, the late Edo period. So, the appraisals given to a particular sword would depend on the time it was appraised and the taste of the period. How does this relate to appraisals made now where the visible characteristics are paramount and the physical characteristics, such as, strength, durability and ability to retain a sharp edge become secondary? In other words what do you all think makes a sword desirable to you? The huge hamon, tons of activity? The quality to do its' job? Other? Just curious, John

[David Flynn]

John, I look at the sugata first, Well thats not 100% true, If the Hamon and boshi are visible, ie clean sword, quickly check these out. Then I check the sugata. Make sure that the overall dimensions are right ( this is done with the eye and not tape measures ). Check for bumps, such as hammer marks Check the lines, shinogi etc. Then I go back to the Hamon and boshi. I believe that all swords were originaly meant for buisness ( except maybe some of the newer art swords ). A case in point, is WW11 gendaito. These swords were made to be used. However, some of these swords ,are truly works of art as well.

[John A Stuart]

Perhaps I should clarify my qestion a little. During certain periods the sword underwent changes that were dictated by the political climate eg. particularly turbulent or a time of relative peace. This had an effect upon the characteristics of swords hence the ability to attribute period by things such as sugata etc. When a sword is made in numbers there would be little time to play (experiment) with florid hamon or other niceties but attention would be payed to an effective sword on the battlefield. After all one's patronage would depend on one's patron surviving conflict. These swords would be precious to the wielder and some would be especially praised for cutting ability, durability etc. Later when peace predominated smiths would be competing for position and produce swords that would illustrate their abilities by appearance, although the true test would be a test cut. Now, is a time of peace in sword terms and I wonder how this affects appraisals made today. I remember last year a thread where a discussion was had about some of the incredible things done to test swords, eg. kabutogiri. My personal estimation of a sword that could do that would be higher than one that could not. Is this secondary to other aspects now? I think so. You? John

[paulb]

Its an interesting point John and a difficult one on which to reach a conclusion. The basic view expressed in most texts is that form follows function, therefore the fine aspects of sword design and manufacturer were achieved in attempting to improve the cutting ability and toughness of the blade. I think this is generally true in Koto blades but as you point out in the long and relatively peaceful Edo period and at a time when improved communication meant local differences in raw materials were reduced, Smiths started to experiment with more flambouyant hamon design. Personally I think this had more to do with trying to differentiate their work from all the others. These designs had little to do with improving the functionality of the blade.

The basis of the Shin-shinto movement was to get back to the "purity" of earlier times and once again produce blades where the function dictated the form.

For me WW2 blades muddy the view, with masses of machine made, half machine half hand finished and completely handmade work it is difficult to compare these works to other periods. Yasukuni enthusiasts woud argue that these blades alo followed the function/form criteria. How well they achieved it is a matter of opinion and debate.

[Jean]

Hi John,

 

Very good question, I am not too much interested in the mechanical aspect.

I assume that the first aim of a sword is to cut well. The most efficient ones were Mino blades, I think. You will encounter in this school the greatest concentration of "Wazamono". Now, in my opinion, there are the less attractive. I prefer the stern Yamato, the fantastic Yamashiro Jigane, Bizen Hamon, flamboyant Soshu blades.

 

But in fact, what is important for me is that the sword is truly representative of a school. That is what kantei is all about.

 

For example as stated before in another topic, I have four katanas :

 

Nio Katana (Nambokucho) : It should have been a reflect of Yamato tradition (cf Connoisseur's book of Japanese sword) : it is a fantastic sword with a big and long sayagaki by Tanobe, stating that it is a typical

Nio school. I do not question the sayagaki but the sword should have had a high shinogi ===> it is not representative of the Yamato tradition/influence

 

Enju Katana (cheaper than a Rai one) : It is an incredible fantastic healthy blade. Now the Jigane as described in Shoshin Website shoul be the following :

"HIROMURA brings SHIKKAKE and RAI to HIGO.

Finely worked KONE-TSUCHI "Mud" KO-MOKUME.

ENJU famous for SHIRA-KERU "Turbid-white." This frothy off-white

film clings in the grain and gives the appearance one might find

in an aerial view of the open sea"

 

I have never seen such a clearer jigane than in this katana, it is very very close to Rai (which was my aim in buying it) but is absolutely not representative of the school

 

Soshu hitatsura Katana (Odawara - attributed to Tsunahiro): fantastic, but it is rather nioi deki rather than Nie deki ===> it is not representative of the Soshu tradition ...

 

In conclusion : The important (for me) is to get sword really representative of Gokkaden schools. In fact, the aim of a true collector is to upgrade his collection, the only means is to try to get swords made by the first generations of a school. After the third generation, generally there is a corruption in the tradition.

 

Take for example our friend Darcy. When he is submitting to the board members a kantei, the sword submitted has all the characteristics of the school and by the way of the smith. It is the only way to have kantei done otherwise you will only kantei the school if you are lucky, that is what kanteisho (papers) are all about (refer to Nihontocraft website and colonenl Goto's sword which is "kantei" to 3 different schools ...

 

It is only my personnal opinion and I share it (French joke)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:D

[John A Stuart]

Form or function. Yes, an itch I need to scratch every so often. Function precedes form for the most part and sometimes form can be retrogressive. This appears in the low regard found in a lot of people in regards to Soten work for example, not all, some are impressive. However, Minoto have had a similar reputation even though as Jean noted they had a reputation of sharpness. Now when both criteria are met we really have something. The gunto that were mass produced were indeed good choppers but not art swords ( I do not refer to the well made traditional swords) so, in this case do not include them. It isn't the Kantei, knowing what a particular sword is, but the value based on what criteria is used to evaluate that sword. The intrinsic value of a good sword should not change as tastes change over time. Anyhow, food for thought. John

[Jean]

John,

 

Taking for example Tanobe Juyo sayagakis. You will almost always see his comment : Chin Cho or ChinChin ChoCho "especially precious/treasured", whatever the school or the smith. It means that criteria are based on the quality of the blade itself and not taste.

 

The criteria is quite simple, it is the quality. For the Japanese, it is both the quality and the swordsmith, it seems they are very difficult to dissociate. Try to find a Juyo blade by a Chu saku smith ....

 

But in conclusion, when you say "The intrinsic value of a good sword should not change as tastes change over time." you should rather write :

"The intrinsic value of a good sword DOES not change as tastes change over time."

 

Intrisic value shall always be the same, tastes have no influence on it whatsoever .

 

Paris shall always be Paris (French saying) (whatever are the tastes)