Kantei By Photo - June

[CSM101]

Dear members,

 

 

this time it is a little bit difficult. Because you only get a part of the blade and the measurements.

 

Have fun and I will give the answer on friday.

 

 

Uwe G.

 

 

Katana; nagasa  71,4 cm; sori 1,7 cm; motohaba  3,1 cm; sakihaba 2,5 cm

 

marumune

[Jon MB]

Enju

[Guest Rayhan]

Mihara?

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Sanjo (Early Yamashiro)

 Arnold F.

[Vermithrax16]

I second Jon MB's Enju vote.

[Ray Singer]

Aoe.

[mywei]

Boshi looks like Aoe-boshi

[Ray Singer]

Yes, boshi appears to be textbook Aoe. Jihada looks right and appears to have traces of sumi-hada. Maru-mune is seen in both Ko-Aoe and Aoe. Shinogi-ji is proportionately narrow. A continuous utsuri appears to be present. Probably wrong, but that was my impression. ..

[CSM101]

Oooosuriage, mumei, kinzoganmei     

 

Uwe G.

[Guest Rayhan]

If it is Marumune and important enough to warrant a Kinzoganmei then Aoe is a logical call. I'm still sticking to my guess, so just a comment.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Oooosuriage and still over 71 cm ? Wow.

 

Ko-Aoe seems a good call to me reasons already explained by Raymond even if I'm not able to see the utsuri.

[Fuuten]

After being pointed in the right direction *(Raymond), i have been looking through some of my books and from this photo and the reference material alone i was thinking between ko and chu aoe. On ko-aoe its said that bohi and carvings are rare, but who knows. I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to do kantei but its very enjoyable to have the references to be able to research it.

[paulb]

Axel

You have summarised what kantei is about as a learning tool. It isn't necessarily about what you know but it makes you look at features in a disciplined way and research what you have found

It is an excellent learning tool that too many of us have been reluctant to use in the past (it took me way too long)

getting the right answer might make someone feel good for a short time but we learn much more from those we either dont know and have to research or get wrong

 

I am also leaning towards Aoe. I cant see much nie either in hamon or jigane, I think I am seeing small patches of sumi-tetsu and even some indication of dan-utsuri (although that might just be my eyes and wishful thinking) I think this combination moves it slightly later than ko Aoe and  I would place it as simply Aoe late kamakura period.

[Fuuten]

Yes Paul, its only now that I've been starting to comprehend the ways i can use several books (indexes, some found here are really invaluable for this). With some personal page markers i'm becoming much more handy finding what i'm looking for. This is what makes this hobby so much more interesting, and the personal satisfaction as you mentioned, that's really what will keep me doing these kinds of kantei. Especially fun when everyone chimes in and indeed, so great to learn from.

 

Edit: i suppose this is also why you should buy books first (i wasn't that well read on nihonto to actually listen to it but i totally see the point now haha).

[Ray Singer]

With regards to Ko-Aoe vs. Aoe, please note the dimensions. a 3.1cm moto-haba with 2.5cm saki-haba are fairly wide overall, with little reduction in width towards the kissaki. I would lean towards Nambokucho.

[paulb]

I am sort of with you Ray although by the time you get to Nambokucho and in to sue Aoe the sumitetsu deminishes and the hamon becomes more showy. Also the kissaki more extended. I have spent a lot of time with an Aoe (Chu-Aoe) blade that I would have sworn was Nambokucho, it was/is a large blade but the NBTHK paperd it to Kamakura period and Aoe based on hamon, small amount of Sumitetsu (there would be more and larger if ko Aoe and none at all with Sue Aoe) and the very sharp return on the boshi which they defined as typical Aoe of the late kamakura period.  Much of which I think I am seeing here.

We are really only talking of 20-30 year timeframe and I am sure styles overlapped in that period. If Uwe has followed the first rule of kantei which is the blade under examination should be typical of school and period then I think we should be there or there abouts.

 

Of course we could be totally wrong and this could be one of several other possibilities and all this detailed appraisal proven totally out of line

[Jussi Ekholm]

I guess I can't make a guess as I think I know what sword it is.

[CSM101]

I guess I can't make a guess as I think I know what sword it is.

 

C´mon, Jussi! Don´t be so shy.

 

Uwe G.

[Kronos]

A bit late to the party but Late Kamakura Aoe would be my guess, specifically Tsunetsugu. The jigane looks reminiscent of some Bizen especially with the utsuri; I guess the close proximity with Bitchu would explain that.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think it is this one.    I know I would have guessed the period about correctly but anything after that would have been too difficult.

[seattle1]

Hello:

I believe that the fundamental road map path is found in the sugata and jihada, not the hamon.

Arnold F.

[Ray Singer]

Generally true, though Miyano-sensei stressed his "hamon-centric" approach to kantei, which he said was being adopted and was being used by the recent kantei winners. Miyano spoke about his effort to memorize 10 hamon each day, and that was the leading attribute which directed his attributions.

[seattle1]

Hello:

When I heard that comment, stated with force by Miyano sensei and translated by Chris Bowen, I could hardly believe what I was hearing as it so fundamentally contradicts modern kantei order of examination and the format for written description of blade characteristics. For a master like Miyano, who is to question, but it seems to me that for the usual skill level we hope to develop, it is bad practice. For a person with perfect visual recall it might work as some hamon are almost unique to the maker, and combine that with great memory, well fine as that would go right to the man. However for the usual collector recognizing that jihada is a dominate school marker, focus on hamon could easily get one into a quite different gokaden and then one is lost. It must be much easier to produce any hamon than a school jihada that is convincing.

Arnold F.

[Fuuten]

I suppose that is why generally the whole sword is presented, then it seems to become more like a sort of checklisting to see what fits, starting with the shape and grain. Here it seems the hada & boshi are the biggest clues..

[Stefan]

Sumi hada small amount , Dan Utsuri, Aoe Boshi, I do think Aoe ,late Kamakura.  Just  a guess , By the way,  a very nice blade.

Greetings and Yours

Stefan

[CSM101]

Dear members,

 

first of all I have to apologize: I promised not  to show a photo of the whole blade. The full size image you will find in a catalogue. Or maybe online. Copyright, rights of use, you know….

 

And I thought, this would be simple, because itame-hada, suguha-hamon, nie-utsurie = Yamashiro. And we discussed the problem Enju/Rai-boshi several times:

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/21757-enju-blade/?hl=%2Benju+%2Bboshi

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/17445-when-is-a-boshi-worth-15000/?hl=%2Benju+%2Bboshi&do=findComment&comment=179873

 

 

So this is indeed a Tokubetsu Juyo Token - Rai Kunimitsu. And as Darcy always mentiones: an archetype Rai Kunimitsu. If you are confused by the marumune, this is probably the only one known with it.

 

Most European collectors had a chance to hold and study the blade in Berlin. You have now the possibility to compare with “Selected fine Japanese Swords from European NBTHK collections”, page 82- 85.

 

Since you only got a part I will not make any further comments about the blade, school, what are the points in kantei, etc. You all did great with your comments.

 

Next time hopefully a whole blade again. Or not…

 

Uwe G.

[Guest Rayhan]

Thank you Uwe for the great learning experience!

 

Well done to all who tried!

[Jon MB]

Many thanks Uwe.

[Vermithrax16]

Thanks Uwe!

[Ray Singer]

As always, very educational Uwe. Thanks again for running these kantei series...